Ceres Power Share Discussion Threads

[speedy] 10/11/2014 08:52

Basic and diluted loss per share 3 (1.38)p (3.88)p

Accumulated losses £81 million

Every once in a while I think of reinvesting here, then go and lie down in a darkened room
until sanity returns ;-)

[larry335] 24/10/2014 13:09

Smokey.
I will be watching this closely. Any sign of a potential commercial product and I am ready to invest here... spread my risk...and mCHP, when it takes off (and it must) can support more than one product/tech globally.
Just consider looking at Flow to spread your risk...and possibly see a more short term return. GL

[smokey 1o3] 24/10/2014 12:51

Oh well lets wait and see on the 10th November.
Maybe Navien has moved forward with their boiler rather more than we think.
One thing is for sure that Navien has a much bigger client base than Flow so I am sticking here.
In Korea, Japan, China and the Far Est in general size is all important given that the space available on most kitchen walls is minuscule.
Lets hope for good news on the 10th.

[larry335] 24/10/2014 11:56

I know I shouldn't keep going on......nobody reads these posts anyway....but I can't help it....
There is a very good reason why majority of these mCHP techs give around 1kW of electricity generation...it is matched to OFGEM's energy usage reports....check them out....bottom of page 1.



So Flow boiler, mCHP with Ceres cell...both can generate 1kW of power.
If the product is on all day that would be 24kWh energy in a day for electricity usage....8760kWh in a year max....no difference for either tech.

Both Flow tech and fuel cell produce heat at the same time as power. For use in an actual practical product it makes little sense for any tech to generate power when heating isn't already required.
Obviously also with either tech the product will not be on 24/7...that would waste energy.
Whether a boiler used ORC tech or fuel cell, doesn't matter much regarding the kWh generated...the deciding factors are max power out (1kW) and how much heating is already required in a particular household.
The 2000kWh quoted on Flow website is a typical figure related to OFGEM's energy use figures and how many hours a boiler is typically on for during a year...and not specific to the product or tech.

[larry335] 24/10/2014 11:32

And if you are thinking that the Ceres fuel cell would be better in just a power generation product....take a look at CFU Bluegen.....it doesn't sell and the share price is crippled with dilution.

[smokey 1o3] 23/10/2014 11:52

AFAIK Flow is a very much larger boiler and will not fit conveniently into the average kitchen. Also as Scrutable says it does not compare well with Ceres technology. Ceres is steel based I think FLOW is platinum?
I am guessing but given all the work Ceres has done before it will not be much longer before Navien will be bring a Ceres based CHP to the UK and just maybe it will be British Gas who will be the distributor.
Keep the faith!!

[scrutable] 23/10/2014 11:15

Flow is described to me as very well managed and about to hit the market with high volume production. It seems to have at least two years head start over CWR. However their process generates only 200W and approx 2000Kwh/pa - a much smaller proportion of electricity from the fuel than CWR's 1KW cell and will not nearly get households independent of their electricity bills without producing excess heating.

Nevertheless I remember that VSH was inferior to Betamax yet prevailed in the market.

The best does not always win. First mover advantage can be decisive. By the time CWR ommercialise in this country, FLOW may have established such deep roots in the plumbing/heat engineering community that CWR may not get the market share their technological lead deserves.

[smokey 1o3] 15/10/2014 09:39

Just to add an element of positivity.
Selection from recent Company reports.

1 The Group continues to explore a move to the next phase of this programme to jointly develop a product for the Korean and international markets based on the Ceres Steel Cell technology.

2 Development agreements in place and successful customer testing of its technology on customer sites and in the Group’s facilities.
3 The Group continues to work closely with its first customer, KD Navien, the largest boiler company in South Korea, with the Ceres Steel Cell technology currently undergoing extensive testing in Seoul.

4 The Group continues to explore a move to the next phase of this programme to jointly develop a Product for the Korean and international markets based on the Ceres Steel Cell technology.

5 The Directors expect to move ahead to a next stage agreement with at least one of these partners later this year [2014]

[larry335] 10/10/2014 19:02

I'm not invested here. I'm in FLOW (mCHP boiler due to go to production end of this year). But CWR are potential competitors to FLOW, or they were when they had the boiler in development...and could be again maybe when they get the fuel cell in the KD Navian boiler (possibly)...if the price is right. I have been following CWR and CFU just to keep up with developments..... CFU seems dead on its feet, and CWR seem further away than they did 5 years ago...

[smokey 1o3] 10/10/2014 10:43

Larry
Where did you come from! Thought I was the only PI left. Are you one or just an interested bystander.

[larry335] 09/10/2014 17:45

And if they are saying 2017, you can probably add at least two years to that....

[smokey 1o3] 25/9/2014 12:03

Sounds good but the 2017 date seems a bit far off!!


Ceres has validated proof of concept electrolyte deposition processes that are repeatable and offer significant material savings. DEK has world
leading capabilities in SMT and PV manufacturing process equipment development and supply, and will help develop these processes from
MRL2/3 to 5/7, resulting in the demonstration of prototype and pilot line capabilities of 10secs/cell (>1 million cells/year).
This project addresses a new form of thin film deposition and a significant part of Ceres' manufacturing roadmap to prove a high volume manufacturing line design for 2017

[larry335] 03/9/2014 20:42

loading. What is your opinion?

[loading] 03/9/2014 15:02

Does investing in fuel cells stack up? Investors Chronicle, CWR, ITM, PPS, AFC, CFU, ACTA -

- Today, 3:01 PM

[larry335] 26/8/2014 16:07

Genises. Thanks for the info.

[genises] 26/8/2014 14:08

Larry35
Might be able to help you on production costs
Had a chat to one of the staff he said the following.The directors couldn't understand why the share price had gone up.
Knowing about the company he informed me they had raised £20 million which he says will keep him in his job for another two years.He also mentioned the closure of the factory unit at Crawley and they have moved it lock stock and barrel to horsham.
Not a shareholder but thought you might want to know.

[king cuthbert xxvii] 21/8/2014 08:14

Newspaper share tip:

Calcutta & Croydon Clarion

BUY CERES POWER at 11p

[andrbea] 20/8/2014 14:18

looks like a breakout, 17% up

[howling] 20/8/2014 11:47

Bang
Heading North

[smokey 1o3] 14/8/2014 17:19

Thanks for that and very interesting.
I guess it shouldn't be too long before we hear about the Navien as I think theirs was a one year collaboration which is about over now.
LOL

[larry335] 14/8/2014 15:35

There are a few pros and cons. The size of the Navien isn't defined yet but I guess it will be smaller and lighter than the Baxi but not smaller than the Flow boiler...probably similar. The Ceres should be the quietest to run, certainly than the Stirling engine but all gas burning boilers make some noise and the Navien will have to burn gas for heating. If Navien can produce to the presentation price it should be cheaper than the Baxi but still more expensive than the Flow. System efficiency is 90% for all so no difference there. All are 1kW power so no difference there either. Not sure about installation costs. Depends how the boiler is designed and how the waste heat from the cell is utilized and whether it can be run all year round without the boiler heating running. That would be an advantage because the power to heat ratio is higher with fuel cell than other techs, so there would be more benefit in summer. But this again adds to product cost so there is a compromise there.
Main issue is nailing down the production and installation costs I guess.

[smokey 1o3] 14/8/2014 14:48

Larry

You tell me I cant think of one thing the others could compete with Navien/Ceres on.

[larry335] 14/8/2014 13:33

Thanks Smokey.
The 2014 Ceres presentation seems to back that view up. It seems to suggest a target boiler price of $7000 (£4200) for annual volumes of 20,000 leading to $4000 (£2400) presumably in higher volumes and the power out is still at 1kW.
If there is a launch in the UK, and I guess that is at least a year or two away, how do you see that competing with other mCHP boilers already on the market (like Baxi Ecogen) and those that will be on the market by that time like the FlowGroup boiler?
What do you think are the selling point advantages of a fuel cell boiler over these others techs?