Flowgroup Plc Share Discussion Threads

[cyberbub] 20/4/2015 19:04

Biggish block trades going through todat?

[larry335] 16/4/2015 11:23

cyber
...or being a small fish that has chance to grow into a big fish in a large pond... that is getting bigger... :-)

[cyberbub] 16/4/2015 09:08

Larry agreed, signs of competition can sometimes be a good thing if they show that the market is expanding... I would be happier being a medium fish in a large pond than a large fish in a small pond!... especially when we do have probably a 2-year head start on the competition!I can sell 75K in one go at 30.25p this morning...GLA NAI

[larry335] 15/4/2015 08:39

KD Navien "plan to open training centres by 2017"?...but they just launched the mCHP boiler in UK...

Seems to me they are treading lightly, very low key, using the suck it and see approach with a few installers (KD Navien employees?) initially, before risking further investment in training facilities.
I guess the size of the company allows them to do that, since they already have revenue from their existing boiler portfolio in other countries.

But the general indicators are that many people/businesses are anticipating that mCHP products will have an increasing market in future :-)

[larry335] 13/4/2015 17:05

It has a 1kW stirling engine...what ya gonna do?....that was also one of the disadvantages of the Ecogen. It does limit the places/spaces where it can be installed.

[grandwood] 13/4/2015 16:44

Looks like KD Navien boiler is 480 x 430 x 1000 and 115kg which is 15% larger (volume) than Flow (495 x 425 x 850) and 28% heavier (90kg).

[fox you] 13/4/2015 16:30

Further investigations reveal this - great stuff.

I wonder what impact this will have on Flows boiler as this other company appears to be at a more advanced stage and imo looks like a better produc

The costs of installtion, looking into that

hxxp://en.kdnavien.com/product/product_view?SchCatCd1=AC&;Seq=68


Just cut and paste and be amazed

DYOR and choice is yours re what you do

Fox You

[larry335] 13/4/2015 14:59

grandwood.
I think as usual it will be horses for courses. The advantage of a combi is the small space requirement. If someone is renting a one bed flat in London (archetype 5 or 6) they won't have room for a water storage tank.

[grandwood] 13/4/2015 14:36

larry - agreed, I think Flow have hit the sweet spot for the next 5 years, assuming they incrementally expand their range to handle different household needs. But eventually (10-15 years?), every house will have fuel cell tech which produces electricity on demand and as it's doing so uses water (in a tank) to store the thermal heat waste of the generation process. Fuel cells are not going to be useful for the combi market and hence may destroy the combi market over time!

[larry335] 13/4/2015 12:00

Another thing to be aware of with a fuel cell system is that, due to the much higher electrical efficiency (50%+) than ORC/stirling it is possible to get all your hot water throughout the year just from running the cell (Bluegen did that)...BUT...to do that you will definitely need water storage for the hot water because the waste heat from a 1kW (electricity gen) fuel cell is not enough to heat water instantaneously.
So if you had a combi fuel cell boiler much of the advantage is lost because most of the hot water used will still need to come from burning gas.
So full cost benefit of fuel cell boiler (i.e. maximize saving all year round) would only come in a system boiler.

[larry335] 13/4/2015 11:47

grandwood
I am still undecided about the use of fuel cell in a boiler.
Best bet at the moment would appear to be the steel cell from Ceres (the ceramic cell from CFU was just too expensive).
I believe CWR were trying to get the cost of the cell down to about £250. But there still seems to be unresolved issues with degradation (effects lifetime of the cell) and a boiler will have to be a bit more complicated than just running the cell. During winter there is not enough waste heat from the fuel cell process to space heat a home...so this adds to cost of the boiler...i.e. it still needs to burn gas in the winter, so more parts and controls are needed.
Fuel cell has advantage of less noise (over stirling and ORC) but only when just the fuel cell is running i.e. in winter noise will be at least similar to a normal boiler.
Anyway I've still been looking out to see any progress with Ceres, but since their deal/agreement for a boiler is with KD Navien...and KD Navien are launching a stirling engine mCHP...it would suggest the fuel cell KD Navien boiler is some way off yet.

BTW
When I visited the Flow training facility last July, during discussion, the Flow products MD, Giovanni Suero, did mention fuel cell tech and possibility to utilize it in future. He didn't seem interested in using the stirling engine tech.

[newkid] 13/4/2015 10:27

Who the hell would pay £6000 for a boiler?

[grandwood] 13/4/2015 10:20

1fox1 - agreed; it seems the stirling engine based boilers (including latest from KD Navien) have a stubbornly high cost of manufacture. Perhaps too many moving parts; or high pressure requirements? Don't know but manufacture of the Flow ORC, basically constructed from decades old refrigeration tech, is likely to come down in cost sooner and at a faster pace.

[grandwood] 13/4/2015 10:12

larry, I have a small holding (relative to Flow) in both Ceres and Inspirit just in case they spoil Flow's party this year. But it is starting to look like Flow really have the competition worried which bodes well for their future. And I suspect Flow will take 80%+ of the market this year. However, sometime in the next 3 years, if they really aim to lead in this area, they will need to think about including a fuel cell offering - maybe license the Ceres stack in additional Flow boiler product?.

[1fox1] 13/4/2015 10:11

I see the idiot over on the other board has copied and pasted your utube link grandwood. For someone who has repeatedly stated how expensive the flow boiler is he waxes lyrical about one which is significantly more expensive. Shows you the caliber of this person. I agree you you Larry looks like a slightly cheaper version of the Baxi Ecogen. I also note K D Navien had a partnership deal with Ceres Power back in July 2013. Ceres had a recent RNS last month the 11th of March. Anyone wanting to read it their ticker symbol is CWR. I feel we have a better product and quite a head start on the KD Navien product. Like everything else though it's not necessarily the best product that wins out. A lot will depend on marketing etc. I think Tony Stiff knows his onions in this department. Don't forget as well Flow have already stated the boiler price will come down. Also there is a combi version coming along.

[fox you] 13/4/2015 09:27

OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The Koreans appear to have a great boiler that produces electric and this one looks like a better bet imo.





As always, the choice is yours re buy, sell or run

Fox You

[nw99] 13/4/2015 08:57

Smart boiler-maker Flowgroup has won approval for the manufacture of its microCHP Flow boiler.The AIM-quoted company reported that after establishing a 'volume production line' for its site in Scotland it would be working on pushing out production of the product.The group added that it won CE certification for the boiler in March 2014, adding that this stage of certification had 'allowed a small number of units to be installed for testing in homes'. The final stage of certification is 'to launch a product to the mass market'.The boiler itself was launched in January, with marketing campaigns in the North West and North East beginning in February and the expectation being that they will be extended to the Midlands and South East as soon as possible. Flowgroup enthused that such campaigns have 'driven significant levels of customer enquiries into the redesigned Flow website and call centre'.CEO Tony Stiff remarked that the company was 'extremely pleased to announce that customers are responding well to the Flow offer'. He added that its marketing and sales team 'have worked very hard to achieve this strong impact'.Looking ahead, he said that the company was working on its 'network of independent installers, who will soon begin proactively recommending the Flow boiler to their customers' – something he said should open 'another vital sales channel'.

[larry335] 13/4/2015 08:23

Stirling engine again?
KD Navien are supposedly working with Ceres to utilize the steel fuel cell in a boiler product. I wonder how far they have progressed with that...
This launch offering seems similar to the Baxi Ecogen but just bit cheaper.
It doesn't seem to have MCS accreditation yet either.

[grandwood] 12/4/2015 23:13

Looks like the Koreans are also launching a mchp boiler in the UK this month....



At 6k, still well above the cost of the flow boiler but they may still bag some of of the available FIT installs this year.

[fox you] 12/4/2015 11:11

Where are the figures?
If there were any figures, I and many others would be quiet ready to make informed decisions if to buy or avoid, or sell if one is already a holder.

No heating were we live for several days again - hot sunshine through the large windows,

Seriously chumps - feel free to disagree with me. Most of April, May, almost all of June, July and August and most of September, most people in London, se England and sout of uk, ie about half the nation will use their heating as advised above and if used usally pm, on for a couple of hours as homes heat up faster - so how will the eletric be proudced. A valid question in my informed judgement.

Importantly no instant hot water and biggest flaw in my jusgement the massive cost to replace existing boiler of 1800 is the figure I have read over and over again.

So figures re sales so far would help but then the figures for sales in May, June, July and August will really tell us all how things are going.

The choice is yours if you buy, hold or run.

ATB

Fox You

[uppompeii] 11/4/2015 13:38

Yes agreed, my last comment to that poster, was just bored.

[1fox1] 11/4/2015 11:23

uppompeii re the person you're replying to. Boring, monotonous, tedious, irksome, tiresome. Just a few adjectives to describe this person. Best to just ignore the idiot and stop feeding their self obsessed ego.

[uppompeii] 11/4/2015 09:53

You asked for a "VERY VERY SMALL HINT" now you're asking for figures.
You're all over the place. Best move on.

[fox you] 10/4/2015 21:12

"in line," WHY NO FIGURES????

[sooty snipes] 10/4/2015 20:11

After doing a bit of homework I've decided to buy into these today. Chart seems to be turning and I like the story so far. Recent RNS statement sounds positive.