Flowgroup Plc Share Discussion Threads

[larry335] 05/3/2015 13:22

staverly
We do agree that any export tariff payment is peanuts :-)

Looking at it from the customer point of view in the long run (if they buy the boiler and want to switch supplier later etc), it is better to have measurement of the export if the exported amount is less than 50% of the that generated.

On the amount used directly the customer saves spark gap/kWh (about 10p), on the amount exported the customer makes export tariff minus gas rate (1p).

So if 100% of 2000kWh generated is used directly they save £200.
If they assume 50% used, 50% exported they save £100 + £10 (the peanuts).

[cyberbub] 05/3/2015 12:24

Yes, a combo of solar for daytime power and mCHP for the evening would suit many people... but the real holy grail for small scale (and large scale for that matter) renewable energy is a viable and cost-effective local energy storage solution...

[grandwood] 05/3/2015 10:01

loobrush, is it worth adding latest FIT rate link to header?

[grandwood] 05/3/2015 09:57

Yeah, here are the FIT rates....



"For hydro, wind and micro-CHP:

Evidence of property’s EPC rating is not required for these technologies.
The export rate is 4.77p/kWh.
The tariff period is 20 years for hydro and wind, 10 years for micro-CHP.
....
"

[grandwood] 05/3/2015 09:53

Export FIT is 4.77 I think for pretty mush all non-PV tech

[grandwood] 05/3/2015 09:53

cyberbub, yeah, I realised that soon after posting; if flow were going down the export meter route in order to work out what was used locally and what not, they would need a clean number which represented the energy exported from the boiler only. I suspect that whilst the rebate offer is in place, they will refuse to install in properties with existing solar.

Not sure I agree that those with solar wouldn't want the flow boiler. I remember seeing a graph in one of flow's presentations (but can't find it at the mo) which showed both the likely output from the boiler and the normal output of PV over a year. They were mirror images of each other; the point being made was that a combo of the two would basically provide consistent generation throughout the year.

[staverly] 05/3/2015 09:40

No domestic PV install in UK would have an export meter, not as rule cos prohibitively expensive to commission.

Don't see the problem here, even if we cannot agree what constitutes "peanuts".
As Flow, being the energy provider, are the beneficiary of any unused power fed back into grid. Both current offerings (Flow Freedom/Finance) contractually bind the consumer.

Remind me what is the current export FIT for mCHP, struggling to find it!

[cyberbub] 05/3/2015 09:16

PS I advise everyone to contact the Investor email address on the website with queries, they have been excellent at getting back to me quickly every time... another sign of a good company.... most AIM companies rarely bother to respond to investor queries...

[cyberbub] 05/3/2015 09:14

Grandwood your post 2989, I asked Flow whether the boiler could share an export meter with existing solar panels and they said it couldn't, for a technical reason that I can't quite recall but seemed fair enough. They did say they were looking into it though and hoped it might be possible in future.In reality the probability that someone needing a new boiler also has solar panels installed is quite low... so I think the company is going to be looking at other ways of bringing production costs down, as a higher priority.NAI

[nw99] 05/3/2015 08:24

Nice 100k buy

[larry335] 05/3/2015 07:31

staverly
That's ok but then only 50% of the generated electricity is making the saving on the spark gap. That is not peanuts, and is the saving that pays off the loan (along with the FIT).
So I wonder why they don't want to measure the exact usage accurately...

[staverly] 05/3/2015 02:25

GW: they won't be able to measure the power consumption of the boiler. The advertised tech data is sufficient: 92% efficiency. Your diagram above looks sound to me. Logically the boiler unit will be exclusively grid supplied. Metering will work on same basis as PV systems <4MW ... one extra meter to show cumulative units of lecci generation. These units will be multiplied by the going rate of FIT and then the "export" element will be added on top. The export FIT element is extrapolated as 50% of the total generation but pays a materially lower rate per kWhr, so comparative peanuts.

Talking of monkeys and other vermin: Fox you're filtered, not for being serially amoral but, more egregiously, you're boring.

[larry335] 04/3/2015 23:43

Corrupted link?
This one should work.

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 21:00

Recent doc from across the pond.....obviously being the US they like to think big but Olaf's MCHP boiler (page 6) is ridiculous!



Mention of NRG in a couple of places but only in relation to bigger systems than flow are currently producing.

[fox you] 04/3/2015 20:25

Not looking good, losers

Fox You

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 20:02

Only other option i can think of is 50% deemed export (rather than export meter) and generated power piped in grid side of the standard meter, and therefore included in normal meter reading.....something like this perhaps....


| From grid
|
|
| generation meter
|-----<----|M|----<---flow boiler
|
---->----|M|----&gt;----house circuit
Standard meter


But normal micro generation schematic has local power being piped into consumer unit which is house side of meter....



So how can flow calculate the locally generated, locally used power without a third meter?

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 19:39

Staverly, so there will be a generation meter to get fit payments but how will flow measure the total amount of electricity used by it's boiler customers (including the bit generated by the boiler)?

[staverly] 04/3/2015 17:12

There is no export meter, nor am I aware of any plans for such. It's a red herring.

[fox you] 04/3/2015 17:07

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.

Flow Boiler:
The technology also costs thousands of pounds to install and run. Here energy experts give their verdict on the new boiler.
Not every home will save £500 with the boiler, which contains a generator powered by a liquid that circulates inside.

Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving.

This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.

Variable tariffs are significantly more expensive than fixed tariffs – with £200 between the E.On tariff and the cheapest fixed deal – so Flow customers may be overpaying compared with the cheapest tariffs.

The Telegraph's home troubleshooter, said the boiler was "unknown technology" that should be approached with caution.
"Don't be a guinea pig unless you are enthusiastic about being green," he said. "This is untried on a large scale. I would want to wait and see if two or three thousand people have used it, and find out how it performs and if it's reliable."

Mr Howell added that new boilers tended to require expensive repairs after five years. "My advice to anybody is to stick with the heating system you have got, unless you can repay any installation costs over five years through energy savings."




Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy and the resident willy can lose all!!

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 16:23

Agreed, I think TS et al. are just following the plan they have had in place for a good while. Just trying to guess some of the details of it whilst waiting for some real news! :-)

[larry335] 04/3/2015 16:11

grandwood
Thanks, interesting about the meter info from Flow.

I don't think there has been any recent delay. I think end of March...April for first customer installs was planned at least six months ago (since they had the initial scroll issue delay) and is in line with the start of the first production line verification.

The production line was only completed last November.
Contrary to some views (invested and not invested) I don't believe thousands of boilers were rolling off the production line...
"MCS approved products satisfy rigorous and established European and International standards. In addition to laboratory testing, the product manufacturers also must undertake factory production control audits to show that they have the management systems in place to support the quality production practices and demonstrate the products at the end of the production line are of the same quality as those that are tested."
The Flow boiler product is still not yet listed on the MCS website...
(The Bluegen is still listed...lol)

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 15:44

Larry, I think the latest "smart" meters will do all three (import, generated, export) but don't think they're ready yet for wide roll out. So maybe tag on extra export meter or dual import/export like you say. Guess it's easier for them to install the dual meter when they provide the energy supply. Maybe another reason for the delay till april is that they need to switch the energy supply before installing? Guess we need someone who is getting a boiler installed to fill us in. Or just ring the guys at flow!

EDIT: just called the number on the flow website....the customer service rep that answered said they would need to install "an extra meter" rather than replacing the existing one. Didn't sound too sure though and offered me a call back from the "boiler team" which I declined.

[fox you] 04/3/2015 15:04

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.

Flow Boiler:
The technology also costs thousands of pounds to install and run. Here energy experts give their verdict on the new boiler.
Not every home will save £500 with the boiler, which contains a generator powered by a liquid that circulates inside.

Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving.

This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.

Variable tariffs are significantly more expensive than fixed tariffs – with £200 between the E.On tariff and the cheapest fixed deal – so Flow customers may be overpaying compared with the cheapest tariffs.

The Telegraph's home troubleshooter, said the boiler was "unknown technology" that should be approached with caution.
"Don't be a guinea pig unless you are enthusiastic about being green," he said. "This is untried on a large scale. I would want to wait and see if two or three thousand people have used it, and find out how it performs and if it's reliable."

Mr Howell added that new boilers tended to require expensive repairs after five years. "My advice to anybody is to stick with the heating system you have got, unless you can repay any installation costs over five years through energy savings."




Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy!!

[fox you] 04/3/2015 15:04

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.

Flow Boiler:
The technology also costs thousands of pounds to install and run. Here energy experts give their verdict on the new boiler.
Not every home will save £500 with the boiler, which contains a generator powered by a liquid that circulates inside.

Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving.

This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.

Variable tariffs are significantly more expensive than fixed tariffs – with £200 between the E.On tariff and the cheapest fixed deal – so Flow customers may be overpaying compared with the cheapest tariffs.

The Telegraph's home troubleshooter, said the boiler was "unknown technology" that should be approached with caution.
"Don't be a guinea pig unless you are enthusiastic about being green," he said. "This is untried on a large scale. I would want to wait and see if two or three thousand people have used it, and find out how it performs and if it's reliable."

Mr Howell added that new boilers tended to require expensive repairs after five years. "My advice to anybody is to stick with the heating system you have got, unless you can repay any installation costs over five years through energy savings."




Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy!!