Flowgroup Plc Share Discussion Threads

[larry335] 04/3/2015 12:26

Example of import/export meter.


There are many.
But it needs to be approved and an approved installation to use the readings as opposed to the 50% rule of thumb.
i.e. if you are using solar and get a mate to fit it, that still doesn't mean the readings will be accepted to qualify for export tariff payments. The energy supplier will need to arrange it (££££).

[larry335] 04/3/2015 11:58

grandwood
Not sure about that. Most energy is exported at the moment from solar I guess.
Some customers complain that they are not getting paid much for export and the 50% rule etc. but actually a lot of the energy exported is not of real benefit at the time it is exported. And installation of export meters is additional cost. Think of all the solar panel systems we have now.

BTW, when I say export meter, I mean import/export meter.
In the Flow installation I guess the customer's existing meter will be replaced by a new meter that stores two separate readings. Current flowing into the property will register as import, current flowing out will register as export.
There will be a separate meter to measure electricity generated by the boiler.
That gives the complete picture and accurate billing...

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 11:43

Thanks Larry. IMO not using the 50% rule-of-thumb is more about the dubious legality of calculating customer bills based on a "guess", with no chance of later validation.

[larry335] 04/3/2015 11:37

grandwood
Yes, I think so. With the Flow boiler the maximum saving is made when the generated electricity is used directly. With the 50% rule of thumb the customer will be losing out on the savings since I expect more than 50% of the generated electricity will be used directly.
They need an export meter to measure it and it needs to be an approved installation for the readings to be accepted for the subsidy payments.

I guess Flow also take some profit from the installation...

[fox you] 04/3/2015 11:14

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.

Flow Boiler:
Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving.

This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.


target='window'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/energy-bills/11253072/Hi-tech-boiler-generates-500-free-electricity-would-it-work-for-you.html


Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy!!

[grandwood] 04/3/2015 10:23

Have been thinking about why Flow boiler installation costs are higher; obviously there is the electrical connection piece but that isn't a big job and the baxi mCHP material explicitly states it's trivial. So there must be something else....

So imagine in a month, I use 2000KWh of electricity; 1500 directly from the grid, 500 generated by the boiler and a further 500 exported back to the grid.

Now my standard meter will record the 1500 coming into my house so flow can charge for that as normal. The FIT compliant "generation" meter will also record the 1000 generated by the boiler but to correctly charge me for the extra 500 I used they would need a third number....which means all Flow boiler customers will also need an export meter!

billed elec = standard meter read + generated meter read - export meter read
FIT generation (to flow) = generated meter read
FIT export (to flow) = export meter read

I would guess that the existing "let's assume you export 50% of what you generate" approach would not be acceptable when using those figures to calculate customer bills. So is the need for an export meter why Flow installs are likely to be more than standard? And of course that also implies that if one already has an export meter installed (e.g. for previous solar install) then installation of the Flow boiler will be much closer to traditional boiler.

[larry335] 04/3/2015 07:48

I find it a bit strange that Jeff seems to be saying that electronics is generally unreliable. Of course relays and such will have limited number of operations but these are in old and new boilers and newer electronic relays are typically specced with higher number of operations...
The actual microelectronics in well designed electronic devices is very reliable and has a long life expectancy.

[uppompeii] 03/3/2015 21:55

Larry, perhaps he isn't aware that outside the south not everybody has to live in flats or very small houses.

[fox you] 03/3/2015 20:58

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.

Flow Boiler:
The technology also costs thousands of pounds to install and run. Here energy experts give their verdict on the new boiler.
Not every home will save £500 with the boiler, which contains a generator powered by a liquid that circulates inside.

Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving.

This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.

Variable tariffs are significantly more expensive than fixed tariffs – with £200 between the E.On tariff and the cheapest fixed deal – so Flow customers may be overpaying compared with the cheapest tariffs.

The Telegraph's home troubleshooter, said the boiler was "unknown technology" that should be approached with caution.
"Don't be a guinea pig unless you are enthusiastic about being green," he said. "This is untried on a large scale. I would want to wait and see if two or three thousand people have used it, and find out how it performs and if it's reliable."

Mr Howell added that new boilers tended to require expensive repairs after five years. "My advice to anybody is to stick with the heating system you have got, unless you can repay any installation costs over five years through energy savings."




Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy!!

[larry335] 03/3/2015 20:43

Jeff says:"Modern condensing boilers are also heavily reliant on electronic circuitry, and this itself has a limited lifespan. It is rare for a condensing boiler to last five years without requiring the replacement of at least some of the electronics, often at considerable expense."

And yet reputable boiler manufacturers give 5 year warranties as standard.
Info doesn't match.
Jeff gives a lot of useful info in his articles but a lot is opinion based on old facts and how things used to be...

Jeff doesn't agree with Foxy: "Unfortunately, many heating engineers persuade clients to have combi boilers fitted, by telling them they are better or, shockingly, by saying that they are compulsory. I cannot think of any advantages for a homeowner in having a combi boiler rather than a system boiler (apart from in a flat with no room for the water tanks)"

[larry335] 03/3/2015 20:27

Jeff's opinion on condensing boilers back in 2004.


He still slags them off.

Old school Jeff. I get the impression he doesn't like change.

He doesn't like combis either ;-)


I wonder if he still has a CRT TV.

[fox you] 03/3/2015 20:26

the price was down

[larry335] 03/3/2015 20:22

Telegraph energy expert Jeff Howell''s opinion on condensing boilers back in 2004.


He still slags them off.

Old school Jeff. I get the impression he doesn't like change.

He doesn't like combis either ;-)


I wonder if he still has a CRT TV.

[larry335] 03/3/2015 13:21

MCS...possibly by next week.

[grandwood] 03/3/2015 07:16

Staverly, these numbers are for MCS "commissioned" installs, which I believe happens before they are "accredited" or "confirmed" on the FIT scheme and some never make it on to FIT at all. That might explain the discrepancy with some of the other monthly stats we have seen previously.

Rufio, I am expecting the next sheet from DECC, including the Feb stats, to be available on or just before the 20th March if they keep to their previous schedule. Still guessing pre - close from Flow itself will be out end of this week.

[rufio90210] 03/3/2015 07:09

Grandwood I thought update would be this week or next week, where you getting your info from?

[staverly] 03/3/2015 06:47

Grandwood: Thanks, useful info. Would appear that numbers revised since last month, seems rather odd but not material. The way I'd look at the data would be 1 install during Dec and 5 in Jan. Those paltry numbers really highlight the scale of Flows aspirations. To install 20,000 system boilers this calendar year, akin to the climbing to the top of the north face of the Eiger. Just shows how much confidence underpins the project ... stakeholders not shareholders!

[larry335] 02/3/2015 21:37

CFU
RIP

[grandwood] 02/3/2015 20:04

Still only 634 total commissioned mCHP installations up to and including Jan 2015, representing an increase of 26 (4%) on year earlier. Assume that flow units, either trial replacements or new purchases, are not included. Will be interesting to see what happens to the numbers over the next couple of months. Next update due out week after next...

[fox you] 02/3/2015 19:16

A balanced view from the Telegraph re Flow Gruop Boiler:
See link below for the full article.
Edited version.


Flow Boiler:
The technology also costs thousands of pounds to install and run. Here energy experts give their verdict on the new boiler.

Which households will save money?

Not every home will save £500 with the boiler, which contains a generator powered by a liquid that circulates inside.

Once the liquid heats up, the vapour produced powers a mini-generator, which in turn produces electricity.
As a result, the boiler has to keep burning gas for this "free" energy to be generated. This means that homes where the boiler is on intermittently may not necessarily benefit.


Only homes with the highest gas consumption will save on energy costs, according to figures produced for Telegraph Money. Homes must use at least 32,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of gas each year - twice the amount used by the average home - to produce the £500 saving, according to Flow Energy.


This is the kind of consumption clocked up by a family of five who are at home all day. This "high consumption" household will generally have heating and appliances on all day, and use the washing machine daily.



By contrast, the "typical" energy user consumes just 13,500 kWh of gas per year. An example would be a three-bedroom property where the family are home for some of the day.



However, variable tariffs are significantly more expensive than fixed tariffs – with £200 between the E.On tariff and the cheapest fixed deal – so Flow customers may be overpaying compared with the cheapest tariffs.
Also, while Flow customers are within the five-year repayment plan, the energy firm pockets any money paid to customers via the "feedin-tariff", an incentive paid by the Government. As much as £300 from the £500 yearly saving is projected to come from this subsidy payment.

Jeff Howell, The Telegraph's home troubleshooter, said the boiler was "unknown technology" that should be approached with caution.
"Don't be a guinea pig unless you are enthusiastic about being green," he said. "This is untried on a large scale. I would want to wait and see if two or three thousand people have used it, and find out how it performs and if it's reliable."


Mr Howell added that new boilers tended to require expensive repairs after five years. "My advice to anybody is to stick with the heating system you have got, unless you can repay any installation costs over five years through energy savings."





ATB and all that BS

Fox You - you decide if to hold, sell or buy!!

[fox you] 02/3/2015 16:43

Steady as she goes - six months we will all know where the share price settles

ATB and all that BS

Fox You

[grandwood] 02/3/2015 16:25

Are we expecting a pre-close statment this week? Does that still give the directors a few days to buy more shares?