Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 21:06

Thanks serratia

[serratia] 11/11/2016 18:17

No idea on barrels it's just a CEO comment. Barrels can be 30 lits to 220 lits. I just remember his figure in the context of shipping costs.

[superg1] 11/11/2016 17:55

It looks like we crossed on the litres bit. I assumed the sample was 1 gram.

I see a 500k sell late report had arrived for the 9th end of day presentation day.

For VRS it's been a lot of shares over the last 5/6 weeks. In monetary terms 500k shares per day isn't a lot for a company. Once the supply has gone it should be back to how it used to move on small volumes.

[vasilis] 11/11/2016 17:51

Just to follow up on Shavian's post above :-

1 Wales based Perpetuus see -

2 Perpetuus are linked to Japan based Graphene Platform Corporation (GPC) -


3 These are the claims made by GPC in respect of refined graphite ($2/kg) into 'pGraphine' at $50-200/kg -

I can find little in the way of 'customers' or actual customer applications. I get the feeling I'm looking at what are basically 'information websites'. All I can find so far are Perpetuus's MOU with G24 power company and a collaboration agreement with Cientifica - both in 2014 -

That bit in the link Shavian posted saying - 'From £30 per kilo rather than £10 a gram' and also on GPC's website - clearly implies a comparison of apples with apples in terms of offerings, and more importantly, in terms of performance expectations. But this throws up the inevitable question, why would any business pay £10 per/g if it can get 'the same thing' for £30 per/kg? On this basis,'Del Boy' would buy a kilo at £30 and flog it to some 'chinless wonders' for £5 per/g - a theoretical profit of 1000 x £5 per/g (sales) - £30 (costs - remember Del Boy has no 'fixed overheads' other than Rodders), ergo £4970 profit barring a few quid for Rodney. Luvvly jubbly!

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:38

serratia, on my calculations that works out that 1 gramme of graphene occupies around 6 litres.
Seems at odds with NR's 1g sample in a jar, but perhaps it wasn't 1g.

Calculation

1 tonne graphene = 38,0000 barrels, work on 160 litres per barrel, so that's roughly 6 million litres.
There are 1 million grammes in a tonne, so 1 gramme = 6 litres

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:30

there's the explanation, late trade, 500,000 sale at 11.74p which balances things up somewhat
There also a 200,000 late trade at 12.005p that looks like a buy.
Not too unhappy if there is more supply waiting in the wings, the selling looks reasonably measured rather than sell at all costs.
Given the recent increase in volumes traded, I would guess, though, that the situation may not last for too much longer, so may be a case of buying whilst stocks last!

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:14

thanks serratia,is that a barrel as in oil barrel , as in 42 US gallons or 159 litres.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:12

I did wonder re supply as well, there seems to be plenty of buys but not too many sells , unless a large delayed sell trade shows through.
Looks like Winterfloods are still working through their stock, guess we will know when they have finished, as modest buying could well push the share price north.
In the meantime it's an opportunity to pick up stock at what looks a modest market cap of £12.5m.

I made a note of this bit of NR's opening remarks on Wednesday:

'There is no-one in the world producing tonnes of graphene. We produce a very very small quantity of very high quality graphene. We consider ourselves to be the leaders in the UK, if not the world at the moment, although that is not substantiated'

£12.5m m.cap and near term profitability doesn't seem to be pricing in a lot, imo.

[serratia] 11/11/2016 17:07

Barrels. The figure is for sub 10 layers. 10+ would be denser and take up less volume.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 16:55

cheers serratia, is bls = billion litres? excuse my ignorance.

Presumably the volume/weight changes depending on how many layers thick the graphene is.....

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:53

I've been out most of the day but noticed something unsual before I went which is still the same at close.

Winters were on both the lead bid and lead offer. So speculating it made me wonder if they had been dealing with a supply, may be near the end and want some too in the normal market.

Also for the first time as soon as 4.30pm hit and the auction 100,000 came onto the bid at 12p. So perhaps the insti presentation has kickstarted some interest.

The last few days also seem to have seen a drop in those late reports. So I'm getting curious wondering if the end of the supply is in sight.

[serratia] 11/11/2016 16:52

1 ton graphene = 38,000 bls.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 16:33

sg1

very interesting re your guess on litres per tonne, if you find any data on that I woulds like to know, thanks.

I did some calculations but I based it on weight addition,whereas , as per the presentation, VRS's additions are on a volume basis and as graphene is ultra-light, then it makes a big difference as to if you use volume or weight. Lesson learnt!

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:26

Oh and another issue for China and anywhere else.

For those that weren't there they had a 1 gram pot and my guess is 4 of those would fill a coffee mug.

So for one KG you are talking about 250 mugs, then 1 tonne 250,000 mugs.

Guessing here and I'll try and find data but say 4 coffee mugs to a litre and you have 60,000 plus litres per tonne.

A large 40 foot shipping container would therefore only be able to carry about 1 tonne of GNPs.

Then of course you can't just pile it all into one big bag as the weight will amplify the agglomeration issue for GNPs under stress.

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:10

A major factor re China is shelf life but not shelf life in the way we understand it.

EG

If out were to make it in China then ship it you then have the transfer time, time in customs etc. I follow some Chile exports and they take about 4-6 weeks to complete the supply cycle.

The issue with few platelet or any platelet GNPs is their agglomeration trendanacies. If you leave them in a container as time passes they will attach themselves to each other defeating the few layer multi-layer properties. On that basis you also can't build up an extensive inventory.

Therefore China could do all it likes but the time the product got anywhere it could be 10's or 100's of layers thick and return to it's prior form of graphite.

[theklf] 11/11/2016 14:31

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but on the IPR issue I was reassured that they seem to be controlling it carefully.

For example if my memory is correct they mentioned something re there is a 'secret' facility which even some of the presenters on Wednesday had not even received clearance to go to yet.

Rather like the formula for Coca-Cola there are only a few people who know all the secrets it seems the tiered approach allows them to maintain the secret sauce whilst still executing business development opportunities with outside partners. I think this may also explain why they are targetting smaller companies initially as the larger companies will be risk-averse and would probably want some contractual certainty of getting hold of the IPR in the event of (however unlikely) VRS going bankrupt/key persons leaving etc

[che7win] 11/11/2016 12:35

The Prophet,
PM sent, thanks for your reply and the offer.

This is a good way to keep details off the Chinese - a patent to protect and the additional know how kept well away from any patent application! Exactly what I'd want them to do.

Thanks Superg for your reply...

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:23

ps, che7win, if you wanted the recent house broker's note with their projections re profitability, cash etc, just pm me with your e-mail
tp

[superg1] 11/11/2016 11:22

Will chat about that later Che.

I have a degree of confidence about cash due to the double up on production. That makes no sense unless there is demand and if they are selling what they produce then no need at all to worry about cash imo. If they were selling current rates no need to worry about cash either. There is no inventory option in the sector of GNPs

Not worried about IP at this time as there are many aspects from production to suspension and you need all the parts, plus the patent record will have missing parts.

All that and absolutley 1000's opf different uses for the technology or as a scientist out it, It could end up in all man made objects. He left the bio bit which is years off, out.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:22

che7win

don't want to butt in here and I'm sure superg has more info than me, but just two points:

1) in the meeting yesterday NR said , yes, they have the patent but , and I questioned him on this to be sure, they have moved beyond the patent such that those trying to look at the patent and copy or circumnavigate won't succeed, least not in doing what VRS do.

2) The house broker forecasts profitability in the coming financial year, the one that starts in just over 4 months time!

3) cash , the question was raised at the meet, they don't want to dilute, if theres something out there they say and they want, then yes, they might have to raise. But Neill was very keen to keep dilution to an absolute minimum whilst also being aware that money can help grow a business faster.

edit, whoops, ended up as three points!

[che7win] 11/11/2016 11:11

superg,
some extraordinary research here, well done, and thanks for the heads up here a few months back.
I'm a lurker.

The chart looks good here IMO, but I'm not a holder, just watching for now.
I've probably been frightened off having some experiences over the past few years in companies at early stages of development - we don't need to go there!

I think the technology is second to none and will be a sea change in so many areas.

I have a couple of simple thoughts here:

1. the patents are crucial - China is a country I don't trust at all - could they get their hands on the techniques VRS has cracked - I see they are filing patents in China?

2. The balance sheet - looks like they have cash but how much is needed before they become profitable? Would be nice to see the market cap rising as they progress so that dilution is minimised.

Back to lurking.

[shavian] 11/11/2016 10:45

I was just following up on TP's link to the IDTechEx show where ND is presenting. It's worth a shufti just to see the range of exhibitors and speakers, many of which are British, or at least UK-linked. All three classified under 'Graphene Applications' are Brits: VRS,Haydale and Cambridge Nanosystems. Another UK company, Perpetuus, also caught my eye:



Perpetuus are looking to produce graphene at 'tonnes per week rather than grams per hour', and at $30 per kilo. I'm sure SG will have something to say about that!

Now over to the Bromley skeleton sled (or 'skeleton shed' as I had originally mis-read it - the mind boggled). Bromley is clearly big into the new winter sport of BaseBoarding which looks kinda scary fun. But as a lifelong skier and one-time Cresta rider (50 years ago) the idea of mixing baseboarders and skiers on the same bit of hill is to me an absolute non-starter - potentially lethal to both. It's bad enough having to cope with Gays-on-Trays (snowboarders to you) when skiing, without having hoardes of rugrats on baseboards taking you out below the knees. Maybe it's just me getting old!

Keep up the great posts everybody. Judging by the rising volume the story is beginning to creep out.

SG: did you manage to identify any of the instis attending the later briefing at 1200?

[superg1] 11/11/2016 08:27

BTW

I'm not the only one that has been going through htis with a fine tooth comb. On the figures and other aspects someone is doing that in great detail but doesn't post yet and may never do so.

Haydale.

I did hear Craig going on about the process there as I liked what Haydale had. I couldn't quite catch what he said as there was general chatter but I did hear that they didn't have one aspect. Up to that point I has assumed Haydale have a process exclusive to them. It may well be that it isn't exclusive and defined as such by Haydale so misread by me as I haven't looked. I say that as someone gave me their notes last night which filled in the gap of what I didn't hear. I didn't ask it's just in their notes. So I'm thinking Haydale aren't exclusive on that and it could be a problem for them

So now I'm off to look at Haydale's tech to try and work out what is missing on my previous exclusivity assumption.

BTW

Haydale DO NOT produce graphene or GNPs. They use GNPs supplied by others and functionalise them. I take that to me putting them in a form of use that defeats the clumping isuse.

Knowing what I know I'd never buy Haydale functionalised GNPs unless Haydale told me whose GNPs they are and show me the data sheet about the supplied GNPs. Then having viewed the data sheet I could then consider if they are fit for purpose.

I do not consider the range currently advertised by Goodfellow as of any use to enhance composites re strength and other factors they have 50 layer average GNPs which in the fullness of time won't be called GNPs imo.