Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[theklf] 11/11/2016 14:31

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but on the IPR issue I was reassured that they seem to be controlling it carefully.

For example if my memory is correct they mentioned something re there is a 'secret' facility which even some of the presenters on Wednesday had not even received clearance to go to yet.

Rather like the formula for Coca-Cola there are only a few people who know all the secrets it seems the tiered approach allows them to maintain the secret sauce whilst still executing business development opportunities with outside partners. I think this may also explain why they are targetting smaller companies initially as the larger companies will be risk-averse and would probably want some contractual certainty of getting hold of the IPR in the event of (however unlikely) VRS going bankrupt/key persons leaving etc

[che7win] 11/11/2016 12:35

The Prophet,
PM sent, thanks for your reply and the offer.

This is a good way to keep details off the Chinese - a patent to protect and the additional know how kept well away from any patent application! Exactly what I'd want them to do.

Thanks Superg for your reply...

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:23

ps, che7win, if you wanted the recent house broker's note with their projections re profitability, cash etc, just pm me with your e-mail
tp

[superg1] 11/11/2016 11:22

Will chat about that later Che.

I have a degree of confidence about cash due to the double up on production. That makes no sense unless there is demand and if they are selling what they produce then no need at all to worry about cash imo. If they were selling current rates no need to worry about cash either. There is no inventory option in the sector of GNPs

Not worried about IP at this time as there are many aspects from production to suspension and you need all the parts, plus the patent record will have missing parts.

All that and absolutley 1000's opf different uses for the technology or as a scientist out it, It could end up in all man made objects. He left the bio bit which is years off, out.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:22

che7win

don't want to butt in here and I'm sure superg has more info than me, but just two points:

1) in the meeting yesterday NR said , yes, they have the patent but , and I questioned him on this to be sure, they have moved beyond the patent such that those trying to look at the patent and copy or circumnavigate won't succeed, least not in doing what VRS do.

2) The house broker forecasts profitability in the coming financial year, the one that starts in just over 4 months time!

3) cash , the question was raised at the meet, they don't want to dilute, if theres something out there they say and they want, then yes, they might have to raise. But Neill was very keen to keep dilution to an absolute minimum whilst also being aware that money can help grow a business faster.

edit, whoops, ended up as three points!

[che7win] 11/11/2016 11:11

superg,
some extraordinary research here, well done, and thanks for the heads up here a few months back.
I'm a lurker.

The chart looks good here IMO, but I'm not a holder, just watching for now.
I've probably been frightened off having some experiences over the past few years in companies at early stages of development - we don't need to go there!

I think the technology is second to none and will be a sea change in so many areas.

I have a couple of simple thoughts here:

1. the patents are crucial - China is a country I don't trust at all - could they get their hands on the techniques VRS has cracked - I see they are filing patents in China?

2. The balance sheet - looks like they have cash but how much is needed before they become profitable? Would be nice to see the market cap rising as they progress so that dilution is minimised.

Back to lurking.

[shavian] 11/11/2016 10:45

I was just following up on TP's link to the IDTechEx show where ND is presenting. It's worth a shufti just to see the range of exhibitors and speakers, many of which are British, or at least UK-linked. All three classified under 'Graphene Applications' are Brits: VRS,Haydale and Cambridge Nanosystems. Another UK company, Perpetuus, also caught my eye:



Perpetuus are looking to produce graphene at 'tonnes per week rather than grams per hour', and at $30 per kilo. I'm sure SG will have something to say about that!

Now over to the Bromley skeleton sled (or 'skeleton shed' as I had originally mis-read it - the mind boggled). Bromley is clearly big into the new winter sport of BaseBoarding which looks kinda scary fun. But as a lifelong skier and one-time Cresta rider (50 years ago) the idea of mixing baseboarders and skiers on the same bit of hill is to me an absolute non-starter - potentially lethal to both. It's bad enough having to cope with Gays-on-Trays (snowboarders to you) when skiing, without having hoardes of rugrats on baseboards taking you out below the knees. Maybe it's just me getting old!

Keep up the great posts everybody. Judging by the rising volume the story is beginning to creep out.

SG: did you manage to identify any of the instis attending the later briefing at 1200?

[superg1] 11/11/2016 08:27

BTW

I'm not the only one that has been going through htis with a fine tooth comb. On the figures and other aspects someone is doing that in great detail but doesn't post yet and may never do so.

Haydale.

I did hear Craig going on about the process there as I liked what Haydale had. I couldn't quite catch what he said as there was general chatter but I did hear that they didn't have one aspect. Up to that point I has assumed Haydale have a process exclusive to them. It may well be that it isn't exclusive and defined as such by Haydale so misread by me as I haven't looked. I say that as someone gave me their notes last night which filled in the gap of what I didn't hear. I didn't ask it's just in their notes. So I'm thinking Haydale aren't exclusive on that and it could be a problem for them

So now I'm off to look at Haydale's tech to try and work out what is missing on my previous exclusivity assumption.

BTW

Haydale DO NOT produce graphene or GNPs. They use GNPs supplied by others and functionalise them. I take that to me putting them in a form of use that defeats the clumping isuse.

Knowing what I know I'd never buy Haydale functionalised GNPs unless Haydale told me whose GNPs they are and show me the data sheet about the supplied GNPs. Then having viewed the data sheet I could then consider if they are fit for purpose.

I do not consider the range currently advertised by Goodfellow as of any use to enhance composites re strength and other factors they have 50 layer average GNPs which in the fullness of time won't be called GNPs imo.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 23:58

and other oral uses:

Dental diseases, which are caused by the overgrowth of certain bacteria in the mouth, are among the most common health problems in the world. Now scientists have discovered that a material called graphene oxide is effective at eliminating these bacteria, some of which have developed antibiotic resistance.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 23:30

> I assume you thought you were joking :-)

I was only half joking - although I still have all my own teeth (despite a misspent youth sucking pear drops) then stronger false teeth was indeed one thing that did come to mind to be improved upon with graphene technology. Let us see which year they become available in order to buy them for my wife's Xmas present !!!

After a bad day at work then I can console myself by being thankful that after many years of training then I haven't ended-up doing false teeth research. Any idea what the outcome of the research was?

[superg1] 10/11/2016 19:20

Cougar

Evodental are with VRS in trials.

I note Victrex are in that field too. Having just looked at Victrex I'm sure such GNP PEEK reults would grab their attention unless they want to move to 2nd of course.

I assume you thought you were joking :-) That's the GNP spectrum for you.



Now a British firm, 2-DTech, hopes to use it to improve false teeth. Alongside dental implant centre Evodental, it’s secured a £150,000 grant from the Government-backed Innovate UK to conduct research over the next year.
Read more at

[superg1] 10/11/2016 19:15

Linking things up. As I undersatnd it they recemntly doubled their GNP capability.

The recent carbon fibre results news

Professor Robert Young, Professor of Polymer Science and Technology at the university, said the [unnamed] major UK company is evaluating graphene for use in a number of different structural components with production possible within six months.

Neill Ricketts, Versarien’s chief executive, added it was seeing real demand from commercial customers.

“We intend to significantly scale up our capacity to produce graphene to meet the demand we are seeing, which is only expected to increase."

So stitching it all together I suspect they don't need cash due to the graphene interest and sales. On sample evalution sales levels of £400 per gram put that at £200k per week in theory.

It doesn't make sense to scale up now if the demand isn't there. While typing I just thought, didn't he say further scale ups would take about 4 weeks to set up.

So while scale up when you have 100 grams per day to produce a product that needs to be fresh due to the clumping issue.

Logically is can only point to demand. We go on about cash being tight so why spend on the scale up which only takes 4 weeks unless the demand is there now.

BTW doubling up is £400k per week but assume all small sample/research sales.

Either way on that front it could be doing very well on bulk purchases.

I'm not going to chew over that, the shed is getting some graphene paint tomorrow.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 18:49

So my question before going to bed (as I am several time zones in front of VRS time zone) is that has anyone thought of using this technology for enhanced strength false teeth .... I'll leave you to chew on that this evening - Goodnight :-)

[superg1] 10/11/2016 18:42

Just for mention as I got into conversation about it downstairs when looking at the Bromley skeleton sled.

A few months back I recall poking around Bromley I noted a potential craze on the way via them called Baseboarding and it had a start in Canada. I just looked agin and there seems to be a lot more info on their web page and elsewhere.



It doesn't really say exactly what they are made of but they are keen to have strong slick composites.

Advanced Composite Board

'A new breed of high performance polymer composite materials have been chosen to create a board structure that is lightweight, strong, durable, cost effective & sustainable.'

Q and A on their site.

Question: How can a Baseboard be so light and so strong?

The board's super strong characteristics come from a new breed of high performance composite materials that have unique high strength to weight ratios and tough impact properties.

Question: Are Baseboards made from the same materials as Snowboards & Ski's?


Answer:No. Our experience in high performance composites and our research into snowboard & ski materials highlighted that traditional epoxy based thermoset resin systems did not meet the performance, sustainability and price needs we set for the Baseboard. We instead focussed on a new breed of Thermoplastic composites, which instead are inherently super tough, very strong and offer levels of sustainability with zero VOC's emissions during manufacture. We wanted a technology solution that was future focussed which meant consideration to the products 'end of life'.

Just curious as VRS are with Bromley.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 18:02

> If er indoors didn't exist I'd be happy to turn my shed into a penthouse.

Is that Penthouse similar to Playboy ... ? Good things come to those that wait ..... let us see for how long the molecules remain under the radar ....

[superg1] 10/11/2016 17:46

No intention to became any expert, knowledge is power and if I'm buying into it then it's an incentive to learn goes up. A bit like Buffet if I don't understand it I won't invest.

All I know for now is GNPs I haven't yet properly looked at RGO and GO. Imo there is no need to look at CVD at all. If someone cracks that high production low costs then it will be in the news in 10-20 years time imo then any microscopic break in the chain means it has a defect. As far as I'm concerned VRS all well ahead on GNPs and in the right place UOM and NGI.

5-6 years ago I'd have been hopping around like a mad March hare re this company but I have learned just to plough on. If er indoors didn't exist I'd be happy to turn my shed into a penthouse. While these things are high risk I have been caught out before looking and wondering why it's so quiet and no one investing in share, looked way and found the darn thing has been bought out with a big share price hike.

Craig of 2D tech went on about he report ripping the tennis racquet apart to find the GNPs. Yep read that one Grade M or C GNP I forget which one but by XG sciences.

If someone asked me for a new tip, short, medium and long term then this would be the one by a mile. I spent over 2 years dug in here digging away. It's not just about what they have got but all the relationships they have formed via Innovate (gov) the UOM and the NGI.

I've been waiting for pieces to slot into place and the plastics factory news told me they had.

I've been looking at them too long not to know their habits. To the market it was plastics factory. To me it said low costs GNP capability with dispersion and evidence of superior performance in products. I know one guy that understands this sector well he reads but doesn't post (yet). I can assure you he was very pleasantly surprised yesterday as was I. Not everything can be posted.

As a lurking buyer the Carbide situation due to oil circs was fortunate as it took the share price down as the company made silent big strides forward.

I thought yesterday may be the start of the curtain going up and it was more or less said to be the case. Now they have a number of ducks lined up and can move forward with a degree of confidence.

The CEO is off to the US shortly being frugal on the flights and accommodation unlike some that will be going champagane style all the way and while over there with investors cash.

I believe that was the style of transense many years ago. Even Mr ramp Tom Bulford turned away from them.

[superg1] 10/11/2016 17:02

Some brief presentations are now on the site the PEEK one is on there and shows the improvements



So take the claim of Victrex then add on the gains

VICTREX PEEK is regarded as one of the highest performing engineering
thermoplastics in the world. It has more than 35 years of proven performance
in demanding environments, and Victrex customers can benefit from its
high performance properties and our unmatched technical expertise.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 16:41

superg1 - just want to reiterate a thanks for all the well researched and informative postings plus balanced opinions .... are you following the Zulu principle to become a renown expert on graphene? :-)

[superg1] 10/11/2016 16:28

I'll have a read about Victrex and PEEK some time. Vrs did show a GNP enhanced PEEK sample they had made.

In theory if PEEK is very good then GNPs makes it a whole lot better.

[superg1] 10/11/2016 16:24

On that point here was early news from the UOM

[superg1] 10/11/2016 15:35

Vas

There is a big demand and interest in coatings I've been cocentrating on composites.

The VRS presentation gave tier 1,2 and 3 uses, 1 being the closest commercially and they made comment about avoidance of being a 1 trick pony ensuring they have an interest in here and now, next 5 years and 5-10 years etc.

Another buzz on graphene is membranes for water and desalination, much cheaper and faster.

More on that later.