Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 12:04

Vas

Yes, I agree with all of those points, recovery would probably be possible and the process is probably a lot more efficient than when the original work was conducted.

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 12:01

Phoenix

It would probably be more helpful to everyone if you could locate a source of cheap affordable Ionic liquid, rather than speculate on what I may or may not know.

[vasilis] 20/12/2017 11:59

Tim

Yes I see the process under 'Synthesis' [0055]. That process is now over 3 years old judging by the header so could there be improvements used by VRS not shown here?

Also,the process involves 'washing out' the ionic fluid using DMF and acetone (cheap as chips). Is there any reason why the ionic fluid is not easily recoverable by, say, fractional distillation? After all, if something is 'expensive' it must be worth recovering if cost effective.

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 11:54

I worked for a company not that dissimilar to Unilever for a number of years and it worked like this:

Towards the end of the year the Divisional chairman suggests that his SVPs should include some stretching objectives for the next year. These then become embedded departmental KPIs, by the time it filters down to the VPs, the objective could become something like:

Evaluate at least one blue sky technology which has the potential to improve product performance, product claims or cost of goods. Engage external experts and third part providers to achieve goal and produce a summary report by end of year

If one or more of the initatives look feasible that's great, if they don't the objective is still fulfilled.

[phoenixs] 20/12/2017 11:54

timbo...maybe that is the price which Haydale would like to buy the NANENE... but quite frankly you know nothing about what price VRS are selling the product to their multi billion £ customers. You really do come across as an ignorant t..t sometimes.

[luminoso] 20/12/2017 11:50

Have to agree that QFI looks an obvious short IMO, superg

[club sandwich] 20/12/2017 11:44

"The big names go through a cost matrix process before collaborating to see if it will work on costs before they waste money testing it"

yes, hard to imagine Unilever would have placed an initial PO unless they'd done their sums and worked out that it was cost-effective to use if the trials were successful.

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 11:44

Just to add

This probably would not be an issue if you were selling the resulting graphene at £100K /Kg, but it would be at say £100/Kg, which is the sort of price which would be required for wide scale adoption

[the stigologist] 20/12/2017 11:42

Watch out for IQE margin traders to impact here

[the stigologist] 20/12/2017 11:42

IQE tanking now as chart breaks down

[the stigologist] 20/12/2017 11:39

Don't think I can be any clearer than that

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 11:39

Vas

I am sure the cost of the ionic liquid (IL) would come down with higher quantities, but it needs to come down a awful long way (hence my thoughts about DOW's motives for the collaboration).

The method in the patent spec (see link above) suggests that 50mg graphite requires 100 - 500 microlitres of IL, so the ratio will be approximately 1 part graphite to 2 - 5 parts IL

[superg1] 20/12/2017 11:29

Been there done that seen the production and the chemical which is cheap. The whole process is cheap.

The big names go through a cost matrix process before collaborating to see if it will work on costs before they waste money testing it.

Anybody that brothered to attend certain open days knows just how cheap it is we just agreed not to post the details.

As the CEO said it's come a long way since the early days of those who invented it doing .5 grams per week. The process now is nothing like back then, it's called progress and knowhow.

[vasilis] 20/12/2017 11:28

Tim

We need to know certain things before we can label something as being 'expensive'.

For example, it depends on how much 1-Butyl-3-methylimidazolium hexaflurophosphate is used per gram weight of Nanene. The link you have given states 50g of the ionic liquid costs £770. But do you have any link which shows how far this goes in the Nanene process? The price of the ionic liquid on its own is only half the information which I'm sure you will agree.

So how far does 50g go so we can apportion costs over a fixed amount of Nanene? And why do you assume that this is the price that VRS pays in procuring this chemical?

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 11:23

I really don't know why SG should think for one moment why Talga would pay any notice to a rudely worded request from a Hotmail address.

I guess he has never worked in industry, so he hasn't got a clue about business etiquette

[serratia] 20/12/2017 11:21

In case anyone's concerned about Timbo's negativity. At the AAC open day NR mentioned the production cost at that time. The ingredient costs are not an issue.

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 11:19

CS

agreed


but at this stage I suspect the Unilever collaboration amounts to a feasibility study in which costs will feature largely during the evaluation

For IAI, I suspect cost considerations are likely to be fairly immaterial given the nature of the work (defence)

Could one of DDP's main motivational factors for their collaboration be to supply the 1-Butyl-3-methylimidazolium hexafluorophosphate?

[grabster] 20/12/2017 11:18

Why would the price of the processing chemicals block the progress of (specifically) Nanene (a Versarien product)? And not the progress of any competitor? If it's because competitors are using a different chemical, and obtaining poorer results because of it, they too would presumably switch to the same. If on the other hand an alternative chemical is cheaper and equally effective, Versarien would presumably go with it?

Sounds very much like a red herring.

[phoenixs] 20/12/2017 11:10

I would rather leave the costings of NANENE to those who know Timbo. Versarien are in the best position to produce and it appears that they are over run with enquiries and orders. I am also quite sure that costs would have already have been discussed with prospective cusgtomers. So, no problems on that front.

[club sandwich] 20/12/2017 11:07

"By the way, it was a serious point about the costs of the ionic liquid, as it could be a show stopper for wide spread adoption of Nanene"

doesn't appear to have deterred Unilever, IAI or DDP?

[timbo003] 20/12/2017 10:58

Phoenix

Likewise, very happy xmas to you too, but I hope to see my whole basket of graphene related shares grow in the next year and beyond.