Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[flatcoat1] 13/1/2019 17:54

MotoGP tyres are far more complicated than F1 tyres for the reason they use different compounds depending on circuit they are racing. Generally speaking they have much softer rubber on the outside to give rider more grip when cornering. On some circuits like Assen they use asymmetric tyres. The right is harder than the left as more right hand bends. One problem you get after going through a series or right hand bends, when the rider turns left they sometimes find the left hand side has cooled as so try lose the front. Having a tyre with graphene allowing heat transfer would massively help in my opinion.

[affc21] 13/1/2019 17:18

A few MotoGP tyre facts I have read up on:Grooved tyres allows the rubber to move around a little more and it speeds up the generation of heat in the carcass, also creating hysteresis loss in the process I assume.Treaded tyres (wets): These are designed to shift water out of the way, and fast. Using very soft rubber, they rely on the water to cool them and stop them from overheating.It's getting at that happy medium between creating heat for grip, but not lossing excess energy through hysteresis loss?So many variables to consider in just a rubber tyre as is...

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 16:58

Lucky, thx v much for that. And btw, '10 weeks to 4 days' production uplift is a good example of explosive growth potential. Sure neill and co looking to fill up the current 3T capacity asap ! Best ellis

[luckyorange] 13/1/2019 16:35

ellis

Dynam1te - 07 Dec 2018 - 12:57:01 - 52607 of 56365
VRS The world lead in real Graphene (Nanene) - VRS

One thing Neill said to me last night in the Windsor pub was concerning the podcasts. He doesn't know in advance what questions he will be asked. I feel Justin Waite draws him out the best.
I also said that I loved the excitement that I hear in Neills voice because he knows there is much much more going on. He said any news out is basically 3-6 months old and that vrs move on a lot in that time. For example the order yesterday with aecom took 10 weeks to produce. With the new machine it will take 4 days to produce the same quantity. He also mentioned that in the New year vrs are trialling a whole new way of producing Graphene which doesn't involve using the new machine at all and will make scalability much much easier. A new ball game.
I've invested in some good stories in the past but vrs has to be the best yet.
Di

[luckyorange] 13/1/2019 16:30

Andrew posted this some time back serratia, don't know if it is relevant to your search?

"If you then google "can graphene reduce tyre wear" you can find this:

Which shows a number of benefits for a particular tyre:
- 6% reduction in stopping distance
- 1.5 – 1.8 times mileage
- 1.5 times better rolling resistance
- 10% decrease in weight
Which includes a very large increase in mileage and therefore reduction in wear rate. If the mileage was increased by 1.65, that could reduce the percentage micro plastics from tyres from about 28% to about 17%, so another potential significant benefit for graphene."

[alchemy] 13/1/2019 16:28

If Unilever want a huge amount , it would join the order backlog .That would be Our order backlog naturally - if the order was placed with us.Who else , Club, would they order from? And previous reading fortified by this weekend "s shows us how much 3t is , and how valuable .But a large nay huge order backlog might lead to increase need in capacity, who would best placed to order the equipment to fulfil such?You're not using the correct approach to inflict any wound on the company me thinks.Wrong adversaryen. (Sic).

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 16:25

Cs, have a look at this article. Rough guide, but 'explosive growth' didn't happen right away in the fangs examples they are using. If you look, right time, right place, right products is a consistent feature. I see the same likeness in vrs : Re plastic pollution. Air pollution, climate change, etc. That presages the building of 'future cities.' Which is An actual strategy. Including 3D construction printing. New building materials, methods. Connectivity, AI, robots. The 4th industrial revolution and no doubt social revolution. The ground is shifting i believe therefore, that will hasten the use of 2D tech to disrupt and provide solutions. EV's, batteries, energy storage, packaging, e-aerospace solutions and construction. The first vrs partner products and revenues are now appearing. Testing revenues will be supplanted by production revenues. It's just beginning to happen. Timescales are variable and affected by many factors. This is my perspective. From observations, it seems to me that neill has similar dreams. I'm backing him to deliver on his ambitions :) aimo. Dyor. Best ellis

'How to Achieve Exponential Returns: Investing in the S-Curve'

[alchemy] 13/1/2019 16:17

Thoughtful stuff . For which many thanks. I can't add to that , I understood it. Now a phrase from Applied Maths.of some years ago, coefficient of friction ...I guess we need that to be high on corners? Braking? Best wishes, good reading.

[richgrumpa] 13/1/2019 16:02

Why would you expect to see explosive growth here Club? Do you have experience of a company anywhere near as exciting and groundbreaking as Versarien? Why do you have your own time-scales as to how long things should take to happen in this new industrial revolution? Please change the record; Neill and his amazing team are taking as long as it takes, and you either trust him or you don't.I certainly do.

[serratia] 13/1/2019 16:02

Alchemy,



Tyre construction is way more complicated than I had assumed. There are multiple variables and they all interact so process optimisation will be quite complex.
I looked at publications re Graphene and hysteresis. When you stretch an elastic band it requires a certain amount of energy. When you release the band the energy is given back but you don't get it all back there's a loss. This is in essence hysteresis. The energy loss in a tyre is seen as heat and noise. Those who watch F1 will know that tyres need a certain temperature to perform best but too high a temperature causes increased wear.
I'm searching for papers that indicate whether Graphene reduces hysteresis. A reduction in hysteresis should mean better fuel consumption as there are lower energy losses and possibly noise. I've found one paper showing Graphene reducing hysteresis losses. I need to read it a few times and will post separately if points of interest arise.
An example of the complicated nature of the evaluation - temperature. Tyre wear is higher when cruising at say 70 mph than 30 mph so I guess you could test for wear at a set temperature but how does that relate to the real world ? As you go faster the tyre heats up, this increases the tyre pressure and tyre pressure affects wear rates. Add to that Graphene is a good heat conductor so Graphene containing tyres should shed heat more easily.
It's further complicated by the numerous additives and rubber types that can be used and it's conceivable that they will interact in terms of performance. The big tyre companies I assume will have some sort of models for performance optimisation. In the past I've used Response surface analysis where there are interdependent variables.
What can be said so far is that puncture resistance should improve for obvious reasons. Reducing hysteresis should improve fuel consumption and probably road noise. Many factors affect grip but one is temperature and Graphene will play a part in tyre temperature. Tyre wear rate could/should reduce.
On top of all that as Graphene is a good electrical conductor I would expect to see new sensor applications.
I've found one paper that compares different Graphenes and there are significant variations but that's tonight's reading.

[johnveals] 13/1/2019 16:01

An S curve does not deliver “explosiveR21; growth, it takes time to mature, a bit like an acorn growing first into a sapling, then a small tree before becoming a great oak.

2019 will be the defining year...

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 15:48

Hexotene is 'heat resistant' i see. Suitable for use in extreme environments, such as space. Best ellis

'Boron Nitride Could be the 2-D Material of the Future.' Mar 14 2018

"The physics of materials that can be made atomically thick is fascinating, rich, and varied. As well as providing a playground for condensed-matter theorists and experimentalists, materials scientists are exploring a broad range of applications for 2D materials, thin films, and nanolayers. Most famous, of course, are the graphene and carbon nanotubes, which operate on the incredibly chemically flexible properties of carbon. But carbon is far from the only element or compound that can be manipulated in this way.

The Boron Nitride compound was traditionally manufactured due to its high-temperature resilience and chemical stability. It was, therefore, used as a high-temperature ceramic. However, its chemical structure allows for nanotubes of boron nitride to be produced that are similar to carbon nanotubes. Predicted in 1994 and synthesized the next year, these nanotubes have very different properties; unlike carbon nanotubes, they are electrical insulators, and they’re also more thermal and chemically stable than their carbon cousins. This enhanced thermal stability – as well as their increased resistance to neutron radiation – has meant that suggested applications include extreme environments like outer space...."

[club sandwich] 13/1/2019 15:34

"Graphene has a whole range of industrial benefits and Versarien is well placed to gain from that potential."

couldn't agree more. so where are the contracts, orders and revenues?

"We are only at the beginning of the S curve"

even at the beginning of the S curve I'd expect to see *some* significant money flowing - the 19% increase in revenues in H2 wasn't exactly shabby, but neither was it the explosive growth I'd expect to see from a company to whose door the world was beating a path to use its products...

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 15:33

Tbh, it was 'temperature resistance' from below quote in china aerospace rns that got me wondering. Any ideas on what 2D material/s (single&/layered) might be involved ? Best ellis

"....Neill Ricketts, CEO of Versarien, commented: "We are delighted to have reached this agreement with our latest Chinese Partner.

"The aerospace sector is at the forefront of developing advanced materials to cope with demands for attributes such as lightness, high strength, conductivity, temperature resistance and corrosion resistance.  We believe that the incorporation of Versarien's graphene and other 2D materials can provide significant benefits and we look forward to collaborating with the Partner to develop new and innovative products...."

[johnveals] 13/1/2019 15:28

The “machines̶1; are just one part of a process for producing graphene and are not specific to that process ie they are used in other industrial applications.

Step back from the minutiae and look at the big picture. Graphene has a whole range of industrial benefits and Versarien is well placed to gain from that potential. We are only at the beginning of the S curve, how far and how fast it will ramp up is anyone’s guess bubI am pretty relaxed at the moment.

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 14:35

Thx all...that's a fail then ! :) back to the drawing board lol ! Atb ellis

[croc8] 13/1/2019 14:32

Ellissj, hexotene is a fantastic thermal conductor, so it would have the opposite result :-)

[obbig60] 13/1/2019 14:30

I would guess it's an electrical insulator - not a thermal one!

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 14:25

Btw, bit of fun. Hexotene is a fantastic insulator. Wonder if it could be baked into glass, or simply coated both sides of the pane, to provide the same insulating benefits of standard double glazing as is ? Thus, 1 pane of hexotene glass might replace double glazing as the standard glazing product of choice ? I'll get my coat ;) best ellis

[ellissj] 13/1/2019 14:11

I think it's been said, there are other machinery types that could be adapted for use by vrs other than the present manufacturer they rely upon? (Was that at the agm anyone?) And that's if i assume, an exclusivity agreement cannot be made (but there's no evidence of that) and/or more capacity is reqd than they can supply. But also, neill advised recently (poddy or tweet?), another method was bring trialled, which i took as a positive - else why say it ? I don't believe anything is being put to chance, given the mo of the company and the way it carefully goes about its business. Neill derisks as he goes along, clear to see. Very well managed :) Aimo. Best ellis.

[club sandwich] 13/1/2019 13:40

"We have 3tonne production capacity"

we do. but how are they going to service a large contract from say a Unilever? I don't expect them to order in one go the 600T NR thought they might eventually need, but if they ordered say 5T or 10T how would VRS service it? We don't know, do we - and nor do the markets, which is why the share price isn't much much higher. And probably nor do potential customers, which may be inhibiting orders. Or if multiple partners - say a Unilever, an Aecom, a DDP - order a few Ts each? This is all speculation, of course, but y'all feel free to speculate about the costings/weight/savings on arches, so I thought I'd throw in my tuppeny worth.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm concerned that we've heard nothing about this (alleged) 2-year exclusivity deal on the machines. And even assuming that *does* happens what then? What happens after 2 years? This is an obvious point of failure for VRS's business model (as it currently stands - and that's an important caveat) and a quite legitimate concern for s'holders, and yet despite repeated requests to the company by various people we've heard nothing. I don't expect them to give away their business plan, but I *do* expect them to address a legitimate concern many s'holders have - and simply saying "You worry too much" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

[molatovkid] 13/1/2019 12:34

Alchemy, a while ago I asked Neil Ricketts a similar question on Twitter about the merits of adding graphene to a product and whether it made a significant difference....he said it did.