Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[phoenixs] 19/4/2017 10:31

Pity to see that timbo is being a prat on this board.

[timbo003] 19/4/2017 10:19

Odd isn't it, I haven't mentioned Haydale recently, although I have referred to Talga and Thomas Swan, superg seems a bit obsessed with Haydale, I have no idea why. I see that he is now over on the Haydale thread ranting away (again)

He has an entrenched position and an unhealthy obsession with Haydale and he is clearly overexposed to Versarien. Personally I prefer to take a balanced approach and Haydale and other Graphene related shares only represent a small portion of my portfolio.

[frogkid] 19/4/2017 10:09

I have taken a position here today. I have been watching for a few weeks and I like what I see. Just need the orders to start rolling.CheersFrog

[astralvision] 19/4/2017 09:47

Seems that a few orders for the stuff wouldn't go amiss!

Fantastic research from sg1 here, but just wish sg1 and timbo could just take it off board or agree to disagree or something like that. In danger of ruining a good board, imo.

[john henry] 19/4/2017 09:46

30M mkt cap needs to be justified, can't be supported by Jam

[john henry] 19/4/2017 09:43

Would appear the market is getting a little impatient by the lack of contractual news.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 09:42

BTW

Timbo I didn't vote you down I don't use that daft button.

I'll be over on Hayd shortly, if you want to chat.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 09:32

Timbo

I ad to have read sadly.

You asked me not to post on Hayadle which I did do. I'll quite happily start that up again.

I say say it was google search no I don't have a deep disrespect for you either.

You have posted misinformation which once repeated under challenge Imo becomes lies so I have nothing to apologise for. You have an obsession with all GNPs needing functionalisation to defend the Haydale tech. In looking for products I can find products functionlaised that are not Haydale's so others can do that.



I had held off speaking to Hargreaves re some false claims by Haydale and I have contacts there, so feel free to keep prodding me into speaking to them and sending a full report. I know Giles is a typical headless chicken on any negativity.

I have tried to steer clear of shares where I think there is an issue. You come here prodding and poking, I left you alone, so feel free to keep it up on the personal stuff and I'll happily advertise Haydale a bit of a con where the are trying to claim all GNP production needs technology like theirs. It's simply untrue.

I know Ray would love the attention and report to Hargreaves driven by your obsession, he was hopping up and down on the posts before wasn't he and sounding off.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 09:18

Talga

Following on from that post.

It seems very clear to me that lateral is important for the enhancement of composites and another company records similar info to Talga to support that.

EG for the few layer and very small lateral Talga list it as suitable for electronic, bio-tech and water filtration.

2-5 layer (still small lateral) Sensors, Conductive ink, Li-Air batteries.

3-10 layer Functional coatings, Composites, Plastics


So clear evidence once gain that lateral size is important for composites. I think that is why XG GNPs didn't give good results in the epoxy resin.

Thomas Swan list GNPs in much the same way with small lateral not listed for composites just like Talga.

HOWEVER

What Talga list as suitable for composites Thomas Swann don't. Talaga under 10 layer only hit 1um lateral. TS list lateral larger than that for Conductive inks, conductive coatings, energy storage, thermal management.

It seems to see the Talga process must be very harsh and in the wish to get to under layer layer it smashes the GNPs to pieces and they lose their lateral size which is important in composites. At .1um it may as well be called a graphene nano dot as it fits the description for nano as 100nm (.1um).

As I said it's not just about under 10 layer.

So Imo it seem Talga do not have anything suitable under 10 layer for composites that will perform as good as under 10 layer and a good range on the earl will do.

BTW the VRS Nanene lateral range is up to 10 um which is probably why it works so well.

If you compare that to Talga under 5 layer Nanene is up to 100 times larger on the lateral size (including the full range) and 20 times the average.

It seems very clear to me lateral is highly important and the more I look the more data I find to support that view.

[rogerbridge] 19/4/2017 09:13

Lets be honest here, I am investing in VRS because I wish to make money. I see a CEO and CFO with a tight hold on the purse strings, no BS and with a fantastic product offering. I like what I see.
People may snipe that VRS offering may not be as good as x,y,or z, but if you research the detail, as SG has done, many fall short.
In addition, good quality Nanene and inks, will be in short supply for many years to come, the markets are huge and VRS will not be able to supply everyone.There is plenty of room for competitors and will not prevent VRS from becoming a leader in it's field and very successful.

[timbo003] 19/4/2017 09:06

For the record, I have never stated "we intensely dislike each other" (see sugerg post #3600) when referring to sugerg , he is misquoting me yet again. However I did state that "there is very little common ground other than a deep disrespect for one another" (post #3382) which is somewhat different.

It is perfectly understandable that I believe that superg deeply disrespects me, as he has repeatedly accused me of being a liar and a fraud (no rational reasons given and no apologies ever offered) and it is completely understandable that I deeply disrespect surgerg for making those wild and invalid accusations.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 09:01

Talga

Well found BTW.

A potential clear issue with their graphene.

As recorded in great detail recently lateral size is also very important for composites and strength as found in research and commented on by Dr Andrew D.

The issue.

When Tlaga do under 10 layer it seems their method results in poor lateral size.

EG few layer under .1 um lateral size

2-5 layer .1um

Under 10 1um

GNPs they list as 10-150 layers but even then at high layer they still only seem to get up to 3um on the lateral size.

They then from 10 layers up start to call it micro graphite but list that as >3000 layers.

[shavian] 19/4/2017 08:50

SG1: Agreed on graphite and Talga. Having your own graphite mine, regardless of the quality, is a complete irrelevance as far as graphene production is concerned. The cost of ready-micronised graphite as a source material is not exactly dirt cheap,but in the quantities we are talking about it would be a relatively small percentage of the output price of Nanene once production gets going. We could get top quality micronised graphite from lots of sources such as Great Lakes Graphite which specialises in refining the stuff.In any case, graphite is not the only source material for graphene. In theory anything containing carbon can be considered.Also, Talga's mine in not in production yet, and a more promising graphite project in Sweden can be found at the Woixna mine owned by Leading Edge Materials of Canada imo.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 08:43

The reply

In short it goes on about the vast experience the CEO and CFO have from working with other companies and the costs associated with senior sales staff that drain cash and in the emit deliver very little.

I know I go on about AGM but am I the only one shocked that they have 42 staff and seem to have an average salary over £70k each.

Total sales over the last 3 years don't exceed what VRS have done since the launch of Nanene.

Would we really want so many managers and senior staff delivery nothing in terms of revenue and have failed considerably on what they said they would do on float.

The cash VRS just raised in AGM terms would mean another raise every 4-5 months just to pay the wages.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 08:34

Vas

I sent my own sales question and got a good reply. He likes your view.

I'm of the same view as Sky. I have a good friend who has been in sales for a long time and I'm sure he agree with me that sales staff are often self-centred money sapping bonus and company car hunting wastes of space.

For years now I approach all material purchases with the assumption that sales staff are going to spin me a significant amount of lies.

I'm a nightmare for sales as I know they are lying and expose them. As my sales friend tells me only a small percentage of buyers challenge things like which is why sales teams can spin lies all day long and get away with it.

That Imo is not a way to build a good business. In the case of a world full of false claims about graphene product there is a greater need to be honest and open to customers as many will have been had over before.

That brings me to lifestyle shares. No need for any sales and screwing over customers there, they just need to spin out the BS to the funds and investors for as many years as they can while they spend investor cash and pay themselves high salaries. In fact you don't need sales or customers just serial BS.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 08:08

Lucky

I warned about the graphite mine hype when it happened Stratmin global being one of them as there are a number of mothballed mines around the world.

The hype was around batteries at the time and what has happened since.... not a lot.

Yes Vein graphite is better the large flake then large false better than small flake in that world but there is no connection to graphene.

Taking graphite as £1000 to £5000 per tonnes as an example, yields can be high for graphene over 50%.

In gram costs terms for graphite it's .1p to .5p per gram to buy. Craig Dawson (2D tech) said the source material is not important, I asked him at the open day.

Yields at those prices are not important either be it 50% 70% or 90% the gain is fractions of a penny in a market where grams (real graphene) are selling for £100's

[luckyorange] 19/4/2017 08:00

timbo, I have a bad feeling about Talga regarding lifestyle , their cash burn is all wrong I would say don't encourage anybody and despite what they claim it is important to identify where the cash is going and what they have actually produced.

For me, as previously stated the VRS 'nanene' was chosen at a slight price premium over the others available, you need to ask why , maybe it is a premium product or the production is more reliable/available than others out there?

[superg1] 19/4/2017 07:59

Haydale product





Shown as <50nm which means less than 150 layers

Applications:

Mechanical Enhancements
Thermal Enhancements
Electrical Enhancements

It would do elasticity on mechanical enhancements but it would decimate the UTS of an epoxy resin

Cost for one is $200 for 5 grams


$40 per gram is a rip off when I can get the raw version for 50p per gram and less layers. Perhaps the cost comes with functionalisation.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 07:51

Talga

Their graphene is called Talphene.

I have done some searching but to date can't find a data sheet or it being on sale anywhere at this time. I'll look again to make sure I haven't missed it.

As said I have recorded near 100 different graphene products and views far more than that. Most of them are multi-layer.

Many claim big production but when you drill down into it the production is most often graphene many or 10o's of layers thick.

[superg1] 19/4/2017 07:47

Apologies I have Timbo on filter. BTW Timbo that was a bit strange to suggest we intensely dislike each other (saw it on a google search). I never said that and don't dislike you, it's just a difference of opinion on what we find.

BTW while you are here I have found some Haydale product on the web <50 layer which means up to 150 layers which is no good for what the seller claims, but I put that down to the seller describing it that way not Haydale. Expensive too for what it is.

Going on the comment by Luckyorange that not the only version VRS do it can vary depending on what is needed, but for whatever reason it works very well in composites as proven.

I have noted various products for sale on the web and there is a direct correlation between layer levels dropping and lateral size dropping with it. Obviously due to the extra grinding in many cases. It also seems you need good lateral sizes and I'll list one that makes it obvious shortly.

[timbo003] 19/4/2017 07:33

L/O, I was expecting to see a smaller quantity of 10 layer or greater for Nanene, given some of the recent speculation regarding its unique qualities.

The Nanene material does look like it has good basic physical characteristics, but nothing extaordinary compared to other quality providers.

The relatively high levels of non-carbon impurities in Nanaene are presumably due to either partial functionalization, or residual surfactant from the manufacturing process, I wonder which?

If it is functionalization, I wonder if the material maintains the electro conductive properties of pure graphene (increased levels of oxygen lead to increased electrical resistance)


Talga have the advantage over GNP producers such as Thomas Swan and Versarein in that they own ands have ownership and security of supply for one of the best GNP feedstocks in the world (according to themselves), It is a one step process to go from ore to GNPs, so their production process cuts out the middle man and it is almost certainly going to be cheaper, they talk about supplying their material at 55 - 80 AUS dollars per kilo.

Yes, Talga do have a lot of outstanding options, most of them at around 45 cents, so they will gain quite a bit of cash when exercised, I suspect the options are already priced in to the price of the ORDS.

The quoted options (ASX: TLGOA) are of particular interest and would be a good punt for anyone feeling brave!

I have set up a thread for collecting info on Talga Resources here:

which includes the info on the options.

[shavian] 19/4/2017 06:56

Slightly disappointed that the data sheet headline bullet points do not include filtration/desalination. Perhaps that topic is lurking under the broader headline of 'environmental protection'

[luckyorange] 19/4/2017 01:49

90% less than 10 layer to simplify it timbo. Interesting that you should quote Talga, their cash burn is quite scary and seem to be drilling their ore to analyse it (not in production).

I did wonder why VRS was chosen for the 100k order when there are suppliers like Thomas Swann and Talga, must be more to it than meets the eye maybe?

Anyway, can't invest in Thomas Swann, wouldn't invest in Talga because they have outstanding warrants, high cash burn and failed in other business (could be wrong but that is my perception of them.)

Will stick with VRS which is the much safer investment (in my opinion of course).

[timbo003] 18/4/2017 22:24

The Nanene Tech sheet has now published



10 layer and greater comprises 10%
6 layer or greater comprises 40%

Carbon purity: 98.3%

Layer %ages determined by Raman Spectra (which is good), but the Raman Spectra look very similar to those Talga's Talphene and Thomas Swan's Elicarb.

Talga have a simple process for producing Talphene, they source their own feedstock (Graphite ore) from their own mines in Sweden and process it in their own pilot plant in Germany.