Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[clive205] 08/5/2017 06:18

Thanks for the info on parking - will be at the 10am session this morning assuming I can get down the A14 in time :-(

[timbo003] 07/5/2017 14:20

>>>>>>>theKLF

"I don't recall any being held by likes of AGM/HAYD etc ?"

Your powers of recall seem to be letting you down on this occasion:


RNS Announcements:

June 22nd 2016:

June 2nd 2015:



Meeting Reports:

[theklf] 07/5/2017 13:22

It really does mark VRS out as a cut above the rest of its listed competitors that they are so open and transparent with Investors that they host these Open Days. I don't recall any being held by likes of AGM/HAYD etc ?

Look forward to hearing all the accounts of those who attend tomorrow.

[superg1] 07/5/2017 08:57

Thanks

The question of surface area of GNPs.

It's a topic that I and others have raised.

EG XG sciences seem to use a simple system of the surface area of single sheet graphene then if you have a 3 sheet or 10 sheet average just divide that number into the 2630m2/g which is what single sheet graphene is (source NGI).

So I asked VRS re many including them recording surface areas way below what the thickness suggests.

The answer is single GNPs laid out not touching each other then they would equate to a surface area related to whatever thickness they area using the single layer m2/g guide.
However in reality being so small there can be trillions of individual GNPs and the more you have per gram (EG few layer) the more likely they to overlap to some degree when mixed into something. There is no method to measure how much they all overlap in each case and if they do, which is of course is inevitable, then actual surface area reduces.

So it seems using the surface area quoted is no guidance to the actual layer levels for the relevant GNPs. Some simply use the single layer guide and others give guidance based on the inevitability of overlapping.

VRS and others don't want to use the simple calculation method as it gives the impression that not one GNP would overlap when mixed which of course is impossible.

The key as repeated is whether the GNPs you add in to composites makes gains in the aspect desired and many simply don't work.

[john henry] 06/5/2017 21:08

SuperG I live in Cambridge however in New Zealand at the mo. If using Madingley Road park & ride just pick up a bus there that stops near the Campus.

[superg1] 06/5/2017 11:13

Cambridge site visit.

I'm hearing there is no parking on site but a park and ride a short distance away (10-15 min walk), so plan your timings of arrival around that. I'm also told the Cambridge building for the event isn't obvious so some patience needed there if you end up in wrong place. The centre for advanced photonics.

The park and ride it seems is just off junction 13 of the M11, Maddeningly road park and ride. It looks like it's only about 200 yards after you turn off the motorway towards the Uni.

[superg1] 05/5/2017 19:41

I didn't expect to have a signal.

Another question I asked was about AAC and potential product launches as in the news at the time. That news is unchanged IE product launches to come.

As for deals, everyone seems to like the big names but big names mean longer talk times as anyone in business will know but they also lead to much larger orders.

VRS have a number of big names under NDAs and can't name them due to tye NDAs. Hence I often question why some companies say they are talking to X, Y and Z as if they were seriously talking then normally you can't name them.

[rogerbridge] 05/5/2017 18:30

I will be out of the country, so will not be able to attend the open day.

I believe every investor is keen to know about short term profit opportunities that keep the wolf from the door, but I would like information on the progress of materials standards. I belive this is key to highlighting that VRS have quality products that can be sold at premium prices. When we have standardisation, companies with graphene projects will head to those companies that have certified products.

There has been a lot of talk about Total Carbide being a lame duck, but I belive we should hold onto it. There is a lot of competition from China for items such as blades, but we can offer higher quality and specialist products.
As more companies bring production back to U,K, from overseas and the manufacturing base increases, Total carbide would be another useful and profitable company.

I do some work for a company who's owner has five well run and profitable companies in the group. He said the success is due to what he calls his stool with five legs. If one leg has a bad year, the other four support it. It is often the case when times are challenging for one company, circumstances can change and a couple of years later, it can be the most profitable.

[anley] 05/5/2017 16:06

Indeed so we shall wait and see..............

[luckyorange] 05/5/2017 14:40

:-) just a misinterpretation I would think superg, easy to do with the written word

Lansdowne are waiting for written certification , verification and documents then they will proceed with sales, is that correct? I think that is the case lol.

Patience required it has been but a few months.

[anley] 05/5/2017 14:36

As you seem to be the focal point that is why I have asked you.

I have asked a question and not made this comment up so be careful and besides this is a BB for all to post and ask questions and I do not make things up.

I await VRS comments on their time table and will also have someone ask the question on Monday.

[superg1] 05/5/2017 14:23

uh

I didn't say that at all. Are you just making things up for the fun of it.... very strange.

To save the hassle I'll ask VRS which of course you could have done yourself.

[anley] 05/5/2017 13:36

So are you discounting Lansdowne as an agent because VRS may be unable to verify the quality of their graphane and that means they will be ineffective as a sales outlet?

On the "flip side" and this seems to be a worry for some posters is there have been no sales or even the prospect of sales. For me I am a longish term holder but I have to say that if by the time VRS hold their AGM and if there have been no signs of sales then a number of shareholders could be become unhappy...........

The year end for VRS is 31 March and last year (2016) the AGM was held towards the end of September so everyone can keep a note on these dates as the audit must be underway so when do we think that the results will be announced?

[superg1] 05/5/2017 10:53

Last time I asked Anley it was about getting all the data sheets include safety sheets sorted. I note Lansdowne only deal in quality so no doubt anything sold through them would have to be verified/certified..

On the flip side it could be sales levels meaning there is no need to push through Lansdowne at this time.

A question perhaps on the topic.

[anley] 05/5/2017 09:44

Good point on LICENSES.............

but what has happened to the distribution company which VRS signed up with a month or two back?

The shares are going through or so it seems a consolidation period - those new to graphane coming in and those who paid 15p taking a profit for one reason or another.

Next week will be interesting as I know of 3 investors going to the Cambridge session and I can't wait for there comments.....

We shall wait and see...........

[superg1] 04/5/2017 16:51

Scaling up

As said I asked early and did so on the open day, the AAC visit.

2 scales mentioned. 4 fold of current levels and 10 fold. It was said there are options climbing well above that.

The key back then was IF scaling up would retain the quality and ability to produce but since fund raise the CEO has already said it's tried and tested for the desired scale up so there is no risk of buying the kit and finding it doesn't do what they anticipated.

Now without giving figures on the basic need step up to 4 fold it was 2.5 times the cost of the current unit. Then 10 fold was about 4 times the price. I had already established what the price of the small unit was. There is say no need for an increase in staff on those scale levels.

10 fold if you go by the figures given (8 hour day) is 250kg per year. Double up on shifts and it's 500kg.

The news re the fund raise.

"The funds raised will allow us to significantly scale up both our graphene manufacturing capabilities and our marketing efforts to take advantage of the substantial commercial opportunities we are seeing. Versarien is at the forefront of the commercialisation of graphene and the Fundraising will allow us to more widely market our recently launched graphene brand, Nanene, and increase the resources available to the other graphene projects we are working on. We look forward to these funds allowing us to accelerate the use of graphene in a variety of commercial applications."

Imo knowing what was said way back they can go to .5 tonnes or 1 tonne production without too much fuss with the cash they have, but then that spend would only be on the back of demand and would pay for itself in a very short period.

So that's their model. If someone wants to licence it and do 10 tonnes then it's relatively straight-forward.

So come Cambridge visit day those attending should simply ask.

[superg1] 04/5/2017 16:37

Astral

Nice to see someone posting with reasonable expectations but on that topic actual demand and sales prices achieved have plenty of variables achieved. EG multiples of 10g/50g/100g orders would in theory attract a much higher price than many 1kg here and 3 kgs there.

You say 10kgs would be great at £1 mill which would be £100 per gram. The forecast I 1000's of tonnes needed in the future. Many of us are not talking sales in tonnes right now which brings me back to a key point.

It's not just about having a quality product and being able to scale up but to be able to do that at a viable opex.

I choose AGM as they are an obvious example that quote capacity, don't confuse that with capability as they can't do it yet.

But in the case of AGM 10kgs just on employee costs opex is £350 per gram. 100kgs and it's £35 per gram. Other costs probably take opex to £40 per gram for them.

Now consider 500kgs at £5 per gram, or even 1 tonne and still AGM are not going to make profit on that.

[astralvision] 04/5/2017 15:36

sg Very useful, thank you.I would be absolutely delighted if they sold anything like 10 kilos over the course of this f/y. I think that would equate to something around £1m , subject to pricing, and would demonstrate real traction.Whether that is feasible, from a commercial point of view rather than a production viewpoint, I just don't know.I guess a new brokers note will come out sometime after the annual results and that may give further clues.In the meantime any steers from the company would be most welcome.I get the impression the inks business is at an earlier stage but no doubt all will be revealed on that front next Monday.

[superg1] 04/5/2017 14:46

Astral

They have scaled up ink but I don't know what scaled up in terms of volume means. Those that visit will learn next week.

On the GNP side they were on 100 grams per day on the small scale unit. Taking a 5 day week its about 25 kgs per year.

I'd be more than pleased if VRS sold 25 kgs across a year anywhere near current price as Imo that would put the whole company in profit.

They know what the next scale up produces as do I as I asked the question early before it became relevant. If that unit was fully utilised at decent sales levels then the company would fly.

They are talking to some big companies and obviously they can't gauge what size of order they may want should they sign up. EG if one wanted 5 to 10kgs then on the small unit that may take a month or two to complete. Bearing in mind there may be other orders the supply time isn't great.

The kit is off the shelf it's the know how that gets the job done. So I take the fund raise to be there to act quickly on the GNP side should the big companies they are talking to put in orders. But those funds also allow them to confidently give supply times in the negotiation process.

[astralvision] 04/5/2017 13:41

Many thanks Axotyl.


Just generally, I'm happy to invest at this stage and I'm not after miracles in terms of the inks side or the nanene side.
But I think it's reasonable to find out what the company's expectations are and how far down the road they think they are.
VRS have issued RNS where they talk about scaling up production to meet demand, so it seems perfectly sensible to ask what that demand is.
I accept that in these early stages forecasting is a difficult job and prone to large errors, probably best to give a wide indication.
Are we ready to ramp up production and sales, or are we still a little way off that point?

[superg1] 04/5/2017 13:20

Cyber

The news itself and various interviews show they have numerous enquiries and that they will be working hard to convert those into customer orders.

There are some big names but it's not for me to say who they are. EG clearly Nokia are interested in the Cambridge ink as they were testing it on Rfids before VRS came along. Then we know Unilever chatted about packaging and the like having tested some Novalia interaction bits which again is Cambridge ink.

It's a choice of investing in anticipation of growth or waiting for growth, sales news, profits dividends and so on before investing.

I get all this views as some fear material investment pre actual growth and can make the same returns by waiting for proof of the business then investing to a greater level.

Hence I do my work early, judge whether the market would want such products and then decide.

It seems pretty clear from the 25000 plus scientific papers per year, daily numerous graphene articles, dozens of very high profile companies looking to use it etc etc etc that graphene is going to play a big part in the future.

One factor holding it back has been scalable cost effective high quality production VRS have that hence for me I was and continue to be happy to invest.

It's said they had significant interest post launched of Nanene and interest at tech events is seeing similar substantial interest.

We'll see where we are in a year or two.

I'm not one to expect large deals to be struck in weeks. The bigger the company the slower the pace generally but VRS are working on the basic research sample level all the way to the big blue chips.

Going by the market research report about sensors and raids it seems the ink may take an initial lead. When I say lead mean material sales.

With the ink it's not adding to anything in most cases it just provides a cheaper option and we all know companies like to save money. But then graphene ink it seems can be used for far more than we think about.

[cyberbub] 04/5/2017 12:59

Yes thanks from me too. I think we need to get at least an indication of aspirations/expectations from the company in terms of sales. Eg. have they issued samples to enquirers? How many? How many 'early' or 'advanced' supply negotiations are taking place?