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[serratia] 18/4/2017 11:57

SG,
the first thing to do is analyse the value chain. A rough example - A weight reduction on a 747 saves fuel so over say 15 years the savings to an airline can be estimated. Boeing will want to capture a part of that with a price rise. What they can get depends on the payback time needed by the airline. VRS then look to capture part of the 747 price increase. Let's say they target 10% of the 747 price increase, knowing how much Grapheme would be used in a 747 they can then set a price.
The task is to focus on the areas where the customer has the greatest potential gains and target those areas first. Pricing on what it costs to make is the wrong route. High price low volume is the place to start when a) there's no competition and b) capacity is relatively low.
We had a saying for dropping price for volume. When you drop the price to enter a new market segment the original high price customers will force your price to them down. It's called p*ssing in the soup.
The best price you get for a new product is the first sale, prices always erode over time. Stay as high as possible and only reduce when forced by competition or when the high priced market is saturated. Then it becomes a strategic decision to go for the next segment down on the price ladder. There seem to be so many areas that can support high prices there seems no reason to lower prices for some time.
When you do decide to go for a lower margin segment if you have no competition there are ways to protect the high margin customers from a price drop.
I sold a product in a high margin area but went for another application that could only support a lower price. I called the new market product a lower but acceptable spec. I added something to the new product that cost little was fine for the new customer but screwed up the use by the high margin customer. It wasn't long before the high margin customer ordered some of the new product to test. We explained that it's lower quality and might not work and it didn't ! High prices continued.

[rogerbridge] 18/4/2017 11:48

I was part owner in a company which we sold on. At one point sales needed to improve and we decided to dispose of the reps, the M.D. and myself plus one other visited the key customers and other important customers and the sales figures flew higher. Lots of reps going around on expenses, a good one is hard to find.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 11:37

Good point Sky

Like trying to get a good solicitor or plumber, if they are available this month don't use them.

'relevant hires will all be fairly unique'

Good point, the sales world won't be full of experienced graphene folk.

[skylite] 18/4/2017 11:17

There's an assumption here that this Nanene business will require a sales dept model we've all become used to. It won't.

This is ground breaking and game changing material (if we are to believe VRS), meetings, sales cycles, relevant hires will all be fairly unique and take time to bed in.

I'm a Sales Director in IT/Telco, 10s of millions in turnover, 40%+ ebitda. I don't have the best sales team in the world, the product, service and support sells itself - and FWIW our website (from a sales point of view) is sh*te.

I'm sure NR knows what he's doing. At the moment I'm not bothered by the sp, hope it gets hit by MM plays so I can fill my new ISA up. Eventually there's a convergence between orders, news and share price You have to be patient in this game.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 11:15

On trademarks.

First you need to find a name that doesn't clash (not easy with ink), then register it, at which point it goes through some processes and then ends up with about 2 months of an objection period post publication before it gets fully registered so it takes time.

[vasilis] 18/4/2017 11:07

SG - Who says slavery has been abolished? I wonder what the Romans would have made of whole armies of company workers on 'zero hours contracts' :-)

Seriously, on the inks front, I am pleased that Neill has the trademarks issue in hand. If we can get Nanene and 'Graphink' (?) in place as our two principle offerings - with people and resources in place - plus websites up to speed - we will undoubtedly be in a better place in my view.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 11:03

I just watched a recent video where Cambridge graphene were present. Prof Ferrari the ink guy was talking about graphene and 5G and beyond where the industry has no answer yet and he suggests graphene is the answer with Nokia and Ericsson mentioned as working on a 'component'.

Obviously we know Nokia have been with Cambridge graphene ink early on.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 10:54

I don't think having 2-3 million slaves to do the work is a fair comparison. ;-)

I don't think learning from the Romans in those circs by using slaves would wash well with working time directives and minimum wages.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 10:48

On that point I'm thinking of the bigger picture with the likes of like Proctor and Gamble and Unilver, right down the bottom end on packaging. Yes they bleed you to death on margins but they have declared savings to make with lighter packaging and longer shelf life.

EG if you have food packing that weighs 10 grams and taking the rubber additive rate with a 50% gain of .01 the Gnps needed for such packaging is .01 grams. That's probably way too much additive for packaging but in the £10 down range it's starts to become feasible.

[vasilis] 18/4/2017 10:41

phoenixs - the quicker the pace on the things you mention, the greater the need to address your business strategy and objectives on an on-going basis. Activity for activity's sake without co-ordinating everything else to back-up that activity is asking for potential trouble further down the line in my book. Which is why I brought up the issue of the websites since for me they were an indication of some things 'getting out of sync'.

So in the case of ancient Rome which you raise I would say this. The Roman planners designed and made the specifications as well as sorting out the logistics before the actual building of Rome took place. And I'm quite sure that supervisors then kept tabs on all the activity as it happened to ensure that materials,skilled workmen, kitchens, quantities of food to feed workers etc were in the right place at the right time and didn't 'get out of sync'. That's what Romans did - whether it was cities, roads, viaducts, hippodromes etc. - they always planned and co-ordinated activities. And even today companies can learn a thing or two from the Romans in my view.

SG - You make my case very well on the sales front. If we are getting lots of enquiries then we need the professional resources to handle them - no question about that. But usually you have at least some resource in place - and I don't mean the CEO - to be focussed 24/7 on sales and marketing issues - and in place before and not after launch. Remember the Romans :-)

[superg1] 18/4/2017 10:02

Roger

I have a very dim view of sales staff and love no grey area vacant. It seems to me the sales industry is 95% BS at times.

EG

I arranged a vist for a quote on something, I was expecting heaps of BS. The guy that arrived it turned out as I had known for years but hadn't seen for some time. That was great I was up front with him saying cut the BS and let's get on with it. He then went through a series of BS and lies which I decided to let him run with. I read the T and C which had a no fee cancellation so thought stuff you, wasted his time signed up to make him smile and think of his commission then cancelled it in the time limit.

Unfortunately that's what many companies train their staff to be like and train them to lie to get the sale. Often it's all about the commission and sod all to do with customer service and repeat custom.

Therefore good sales staff are few and far between for the likes of a decent honest company.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 09:43

The old rule, look after the pennies, they do that in great detail.

Any old sales team is no good the wrong folks can do more harm than good. The only car sales person that ever spoke the truth to me was a lady, and the only lady I have ever dealt with in that role. As a result of lies I ditched one car make altogether and will never go back, that's what BS does for your business. They had my Mrs over when my back was turned.

As for the lady I spoke to she got the sale and I'll keep returning to her year in year out as long as she is there.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 09:26

Vas

As said a plan is in place to get the right people and it's something I raised myself. The reply included not the desire not to rush and get the wrong people but to make sure they get the right folk. The CEO and CFO have much experience of what are good and bad staff. One good one can be worth half a dozen poor staff. In my experience just a few poor performers can end up taking a considerable amount of time to support and if necessary sort out.

If you look at it from the VRS point of view, they had told the world they have under 10 layer high quality graphene but when they actually added a brand name to it just like the market reaction it suddenly became news with big interest.

The OEM went to the NGI looking for GNPs and were directed to VRS it seems. There has been lot of graphene junk in the market over the last few years which no doubt has some thinking it doesn't work because they have tried the junk and got poor results.


On the flip side if you look at AGM they have something like 25 senior roles producing virtually no sales at all wasting about £3.5 mill in wages each year. If VRS were like that stacked with such staff that would have been near £10 mill wasted in the time I've been following VRS, so I prefer the prudent approach.

However I entirely agree they now need to get the right folk in on sales which is in play.

My experience of sales as a customer is in general I end up with some lying BS person feeding me false information (caught them out many times). In the case of VRS I'm sure they wouldn't want those type of staff or that type of approach. Hence they have had their product proven up by the best possible routes before the sales process started.

In theory (going by news) sales since Nanene launch are higher than what AGM have done since they appeared a few years ago and VRS had no sales team.

[phoenixs] 18/4/2017 09:25

Vasilis
I wouldn't disagree with anything that you have written. However, given the pace at which VRS have been going re acquisitions, trade fairs and new product, I am inclined to give them a little more space and time to deal with the website issues which you have raised and to have the confidence in them to sort out the revenue enquiries from the chaff. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[fatherjack2] 18/4/2017 09:15

Bazz - thank you

'now is not the time for small thinking though' - makes me wonder just how big are they thinking?

[vasilis] 18/4/2017 08:53

Bazz

Many thanks for forwarding my comments to Versarien. I appreciate Neill's response - it shows that he is aware of the issues - and I have some - but not much - sympathy for any company not 'getting its act together' to present an up-to-date and accurate representation of itself in the public domain. This is not a 'nice to have' - it is a 'no excuses priority' as it is the company's 'face to the world'.

SG - Believe it or not one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a small company is that it generates 'lots of enquiries'. Unless you have the skills and people to separate as quickly - and therefore as cheaply as possible in terms of time, resources and money - you may end up expending too much time on what you think are prospects but are actually information gathering 'tyre kickers' - and thereby detract from the more likely serious buyers. This is not as easy as some companies think it is - especially if you are getting enquiries from a wide spectrum of companies. And some potential sales may either take you into areas which may not in the long run be profitable, or where your 'core competences' may offer best competitive advantage. But one thing is for sure, 'lots of enquiries' don't count for anything if you cannot effectively identify potentially profitable prospects and then convert those prospects into sales and then into revenue. After all, it is only revenues at the end of the day that will be recognised by your bank manager. 'Lots of enquiries' and the like don't count for diddly squat, either in any bank or on any balance sheet.

I'm not saying that Neill's team doesn't have the skills to professionally 'qualify' leads - I just don't know as I don't know what their skill sets are together with their actual experience and professional training - but the attention paid to the websites does raise one or two questions in my mind - as I'm sure it would do with any competent current or former Sales & Marketing Director who may read these comments.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 08:03

Re

'as you are aware there are a lot of providers of average service'

I've been going through them, I think he is being a bit kind there, but as said it's not their business to trash others but to get on with their own business.

So on the average point.

I have yet to find anything for sale on a site (sales route or company owned websites) that links me to any reference to proof of performance and in many cases limited data.

I can see one company that goes on about its graphene and potential lead but I can not find it for sale anywhere or any data on it even though I know the brand name. No matter how much I search even on their own website I can find no details to read about it or buy any.

Through finding documents I know tests were done on one but absolutely no mention of that on the company website or sales routes. The results were poor so that's probably the reason.

So if VRS do get to the stage of linking it all up, data sheets and the proof of performance they should stand out in terms of information and 3rd party performance verification. Standards will add to the pot. I understand VRS have their GNPs certified before they are supplied.

What I have found is when I do find some decent looking GNPs then the price flies north into the £100's per gram which tends to tell it's own story.

The key seems to be if it's cheap there is a good reason for it.

BTW I found one product for sale by one we know well where the GNPs are 150 layers thick with a use claim (no data) that it can be used for strength in composites. Well that's just a lie as it would be materially detrimental to composites as shown in the epoxy rein results I found. I'm assuming it's just the retail outlet description not the company.

Suppliers are in all cases so far using scientific reports and general graphene comments to state that GNPs improve performance. Some use it as a disclaimer.

[superg1] 18/4/2017 07:30

Bazz


Thanks for that, I knew the reasons some things are not there but it's good of you to ask and get it spelt out.

I did say it's a small team and with a lot of enquiries, the CEO did state there are not enough hours in the day. So near term there is no real need to cold call (they will though) with so many knocking on the door.

So now you know why I'm going through data of others, I was already doing that so it seems to make sense to carry on, record most of what I can find then pass it to VRS. Along the way on the various searches I have found some interesting documents which I immediately pass on.

I found a new producer (new to me) last night. I say producer but they are early days and interestingly while an overseas player are having some tests done in a UK University I have not see feature before for graphene. Their first test was for concrete which was more nano graphite than graphene.

The key in business or any organisation is the old golden rule. Urgent first then important with a sliding scale of what can wait and what can't.

[bazzerp] 18/4/2017 07:08

Vasalis I sent your websites comments to "[e-mail]" late yesterday (with your moniker at the top.

I received this reply -

Neill Ricketts
20:42 (11 hours ago)

to me, Chris
Dear Mr. Parker

Many thanks for your valuable feedback on the websites and for your support of the company.

i) We will review the Versarien plc website and make the changes, this website is run by our corporate publications company and the company has to get them to make changes, we generally batch or review regularly. Obviously the Cambridge acquisition is still quite recent and hasn't been caught by the next revision. However we will make the changes.
ii) Agreed
iii) The data sheet has just been published and will now be included on the Nanene website. This is a different provider than the other sites, we have yet to find a really good fit with our company, as you are aware there are a lot of providers of average service. We do however have more control of this site.
iv) The 2d site needs a real review and was provider by a much smaller provider before we established the Nanene trademark
v) We can't unfortunately take credit for the datasheets on the Cambridge graphene website, they were already there on acquisition. We are in the process of trademarking certain names.
vi) I agree and as you know we are a very small team, there is often a conflict between the needs of the business and the resources of the business. We will also need to look at the AAC website.

You may be asking why we are not currently prioritising the website over the other activities of the business, the simple fact is we currently have a lot of enquiries for the team to cope with, we will get there but we are just choosing our battles at the moment. That said it is all on the list for us to do, we are just trying to balance the situation at the moment. Now is not the time for small thinking though.

Once again many thanks and if you can provide any further help it would be appreciated as a fellow share holder.

Thanks

Neill


Neill Ricketts
Chief Executive

[shavian] 18/4/2017 06:44

Axo, would that not need variably sixed holes in the graphene lattice?

[axotyl] 17/4/2017 20:07

Maybe it could trigger a dual-use for condoms: conventional and water filtration? Same product, different packaging/branding?

[axotyl] 17/4/2017 20:02

It would be useful to get some info on the graphene suppliers to the tyre manufacturers - I've asked John Stone, the author of that article.

[superg1] 17/4/2017 19:12

Tyres again

Well, at the moment Graphene is being seen as a new product for tomorrow’s tyres and has already been acknowledged and used by a couple of China-based producers – Sentury (passenger tyres) and Hengyu (truck tyres). They have not only developed but actually started to distribute Graphene enhanced tyres. So, at the moment only several lesser-known tyre manufacturers have had the vision to actually use Graphene in the construction of tyres.
However, as I have learned just recently, all of the major brand producers including Pirelli and Goodyear are currently monitoring the use of this new ‘ingredient’ and it is quite possible that in due course all tyres with include Graphene. So let’s wait and see what happens!