Orchid Developments Share Discussion Threads

[loverat] 15/12/2012 20:16

Here is another one. If I remember, this journalist covered the mini shareholder uprising on PLUS markets.

I think the publicity from that resulted in a derisory offer for some assets being voted down by shareholders and subsequently getting a better offer.

[e-mail]

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 20:14

Markt

With the the 10% plus, can we call an EGM to vote down and replace the directors, then decide how to deal with the assets.

[markt] 15/12/2012 20:09

Jack
the GM valuation, the biggest , was based on dcf (discounted cash flow) calc.

imo ...false

should be based on yield considering what yield property buyers are paying in Bulgaria and Varna in recent deals.
imo around 8% is fair yield.....gives around 70-80ME valuation imo

way way below the GM debt of 90-100ME
so imo the GM has no value to OCH. (and hence best to give it to the banks asap, to reduce OCH costs, unless the banks agree to pay OCH to manage it and/or to offer new loan conditions.....loan rockets in interest rate starting Sept 2013....and OCH can not make the payments to avoid that imo....
...who knows the banks could offer a new deal...but no point in OCH providing free management of the GM unless there is a real chance that OCH will get a cash return out of it.
in practive there is a good chance imo that the banks will contract with the 2 prev. dirs. to manage the GM for them for a yearly fee (with no equity part).


I am 90% sure that future OCH news in next 8 weeks will show I am right that the GM value is less than its debt.

(if the GM suddenly moved from 81% occupancy to 100%....then its value would change completely in a step....but appears unlikely to happen)

[bumpkinroll] 15/12/2012 20:09

KNIGEL - I think it best we just keep this thread going otherwise it will get too convoluted again, but, will go with the flow on this.

[bricktycoon] 15/12/2012 20:09

It's gone easy come easy go bye bye bye to all shareholders take the hit in the words of geko we've been hosed

[bumpkinroll] 15/12/2012 20:07

just posted this on lse - I will not be following or posting on there anymore + we can not have the idiots wasting energy & time here.

+++++I started the ball rolling on the action group last might & we've had an amazing response so far.

For the doubters, once we legally pool our shares as one & the action group legalised we will have the majority share holding after the x2 board members & therefore the 2nd inline for liquidation of assets. However, if we can get x3 of the II's on board, we can take the company over as majority shareholders & decide on the Administrator NOT the current directors who no doubt have this all lined up already.

Bottom line, with this huge percentage of the company as a group, we have a lot of power, fact!

Yes, it's a long shot for control bit the minimum we will achieve imo is 2nd majority share holder.

As stated last night, I suggest guys who want to/have joined the action group to sign up for a free ADVFN account in order to access the BB there as I will not be tracking this BB or posting on here anymore.

Also, we will be going off line with the sensitive legal action emails that will/have gone out.

For those interested/in the group, please email your email addresses to [e-mail] - I will then email out the emails to the II's plus responses from talks with Lawyers on Monday. All personal emails will be confidential & will be bcc'd on group emails/responses. ++++++++++



KNIGEL - perhaps you can monitor/post there as some seem reluctant to sign up for a free account here i.e.AT?

Thanks for the emails sent to my address so far - again, we need to keep sensitive info offline here & I will not be posting responses from my lawyer recommendation or draft email to the II's so do please send me your emails to those that have not already who want to be kept informed - [e-mail]

[frankg] 15/12/2012 19:51

Bump - I have emailed you so you now have my address :)

[markt] 15/12/2012 19:47

Accounts
imo it is quite straightforward (great crystal ball I have here !)....although my opinion could of course be wrong

OK, here goes
the dirs wanted to raise the money to benefit themselves ....but also to try to put the money into the accounts and then declare that the co. was a going concern

I understand that if a company is not a going concern...then I guess it must talk to its creditors if it has any...and the creditors decide what happens next....

so, since OCH is now in winding up mode ..of some sort....imo I would assume that the accounts can now be issued...but will state
- that the co. is not a going concern...and has debts...and has to call in an administrator and seek agreements with creditors etc etc

- that a request for X euros has been received from the dirs. (imo this could be for 1.5M-2.5ME, depending on whether it asks for the money from the capitalisation shares awarded in Feb)

- that including that debt that the overall debt at OCH Plc level is Z
and that a list of creditors will be given, including workers salaries, AIM, auditor,.....and the administrator ! etc

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and that soon a name will be published for who the administrator will be

..then I would guess that we have to wait X weeks for the administrator to look at the papers and talk to creditors ...and make a few calls to see if anyone wants to buy any OCH assets....and talk to IIs
and that based on that info/status that the administrator will decide his plan...
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If the PIs achieve to form a solid group, with a resolution/charter that each person commits their shares to support, then I think that we can communicate to/from the administrator.....as can the IIs. And in any communication with the A. we can try to influence his decision(s) by making specific points or suggestions.

Whereas the administ. would probably refuse to talk to one small PI.
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If a group of all PIs or just a few PIs wanted to make cash offers for any OCH assets, to the A. then I think they could. But unlikely to happen in my opinion since would involve legal papers...and travelling out to Varna, and most people would not be willing to devote that much time or new cash. But who knows, there may be 1 or 2 big fish in the PIs with spare cash.
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If anyone wants an apartment in Varna hills, Sofia Hills or Orchid Gdns....
I would assume that the administrator may well accept low price offers at present if there is quick 100% hard cash to back it up.

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Note, imo the ring fenced divisions are ring fenced with respect to each other...and if they went bust then they can not make OCH go bust...
BUT a creditor at OCH level can access any assets in a ring fenced division company, since OCH owns them, in that direction there is no fence !
..so the dirs. have a call on the hotel value etc if there is no cash in OCH plc to pay them.

[knigel] 15/12/2012 19:20

We might even hold the same shares! Lol

[knigel] 15/12/2012 19:19

Jack, yes there were supposed to be issued on successful open offer result and subsequent relisting. I cant see why they cannot be issued?

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 19:18

Scary thinking like Knigel.

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 19:17

markt

Also the 'accounts' haven't been disclosed.

[knigel] 15/12/2012 19:17

MarkT will delete when back home on the laptop. We need the interims released asap. Maybe a new thread is needed for action group?

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 19:04

Totally agree Knige/beginner3.

[beginner3] 15/12/2012 19:01

Guys,OTU and others did an a amazing job in UEN, MR K and the action group is on the verge of getting at least something in EEL, so don't let anyone say to us that small pi's can't do anything, even if we fail after doing something, atleast we all fell better that we tried our best!

[knigel] 15/12/2012 18:58

Any point starting up an "action group" thread?

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 18:55

Simon

Manners, you forgot the 'Gentleman bit'. Thank you and Good Bye.

[knigel] 15/12/2012 18:50

Ie its really 22% of non director held share issue already

[knigel] 15/12/2012 18:48

So lets all roll over and give up now? 16% of shareholders is no small beer esp considering the directors hold 30%

[simon cawkwell] 15/12/2012 18:46

derektrade33,

You are not alone. I have spent more than a week or two studying shareholder actions this last forty years and I do not even begin to see what cause of action could be developed in favour of poorer small shareholders at Orchid. So all this jumping up and down is pointless.

Simon Cawkwell

[jack1236] 15/12/2012 18:28

markt

Would an independent company have valued the assets? We can't seem to nail down the true value of these assets. How did the directors arrive at the value that they've been reporting to the Stock Market?

[markt] 15/12/2012 18:19

BTW
I post some of my posts on this thread, Markt thread, to avoid clogging up the main thread.....

and main thread is currently progressing the subject of action group....

and I dont want a mass of posts from me to clog that up.

but some of my posts on this thread may, I hope !, have some useful points, for anyone that interested to read them

[markt] 15/12/2012 18:15

"So, imo, the dirs. will need 1.5ME- 2ME to settle their claims. (see previous post)

Perhaps even up to 2.6ME if the capitalisation shares are paid out, which by contract they have to be "

and if there is no cash inside OCH, which appears is the case....

then

imho it appears that 'we' the shareholders (or the administrator) have to either
- allocate to the dirs. assets from OCH since we can not give them cash
(a % of the hotel is perhaps the easiest item)

- raise new money from shareholders to then pay off the dirs. if we decided that better to give dirs. cash rather than assets.
(ie. a cash raising similar to recent offer, BUT in return we would get assets with no debt such as land and still own the same % in other OCH assets). Very different imo.

- take legal action against the dirs. to reduce their claims
but no one likes the costs and time of legal action, often the only winners are the lawyers
(a peaceful settlement could perhaps be reached, to give dirs. a part of what they want if they want to avoid risking serious legal cases against them where they might get very little and/or risk being barred from being directors)

(such as rejecting their claim that a profit of 30ME was made in 2009, and rejecting their claim for 12 months notice, based on gross misconduct (not operating the co. for the general benefit of all shareholders, operating it for themselves, eg. the 30ME 'profit' and the recent offer doc. being an intentional misrepresentation and to move assets from the company to themselves. ...imo creates the question of fraud.

[markt] 15/12/2012 18:04

Knigel
I wasnt having a dig at you.....

perhaps my post was badly written..

apologies if any dig was felt...

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Perhaps you can edit your 3 posts today on other thread and turn into a "."....to avoid clogging up that thread...and to avoid detracting from the group momentum...
and then I will do the same with this one.