Lloyds Banking Share Discussion Threads

[alphorn] 23/10/2019 09:49

Max #272. That cartoon is very clever. Closer to the reality than many my realise.

[xxxxxy] 23/10/2019 09:30

Remainers are just BAD for the economy. Probably many are working with MOMENTUM.REMAIN and MOMENTUM are BAD for the economy and democracy.

[gaffer73] 23/10/2019 09:06

The two are closely related.

[eisler] 23/10/2019 09:04

I thought this was a LLOY 'on topic' thread? Being dominated with Brexit, parliament chat?

[excell1] 23/10/2019 08:56

"Stop Brexit"....This is not what we voted for in the referendum.We voted to leave..Just get on with it.

[poikka] 23/10/2019 08:32

Sure this is much the same as TM's WA, but the big difference is that we have Boris in charge, or as best he can be.

I don't believe the ERG would be supporting this if they thought that they couldn't get a really good result - in the end.

[freddie01] 23/10/2019 08:31

Brexit: Why Boris Johnson will be a winner whatever MPs do next – Murdo Fraser


Conservatives can look forward to a Brexit-dominated general election with considerable optimism – whatever parliament decides to do about Boris Johnson’s deal with the EU, writes Murdo Fraser.

There was a fair amount of humble pie being consumed last week amongst the political commentariat. Those who had dismissed Boris Johnson as a lightweight Prime Minister, lazy and unfocussed, suddenly had to revisit their opinions when he delivered a deal with the EU27 on Brexit.

The Prime Minister achieved what few people thought was possible, and something that was beyond the reach of his predecessor Theresa May, a departure deal from the EU that involved the dropping of the troublesome Northern Irish backstop, which had been a barrier to an agreement achieving a parliamentary majority in Westminster.

Not only have the EU27 agreed to amend the original deal, despite having said previously that it was the only one on offer, but it is just possible that the House of Commons might vote for the new proposition.

This deal gives certainty to businesses across the UK, who have been desperate to avoid a no-deal scenario. Mike Cherry, national chairman of the Federation of Small Business, said: “Many small businesses will be relieved that there now appears to be a credible pathway towards securing a deal that avoids a chaotic ‘no-deal’ on 31 October, and guarantees a transition period.” There were similar welcomes from the CBI and other industry groups, both in Scotland and across the rest of Britain

Brexit opponents wrong-footed

The breakdown of the poll for Scotland was fascinating, showing that there has been some movement from the result here in 2016 which was 62 per cent for Remain. Now support for Remain in Scotland has fallen to 58 per cent, with 42 per cent supporting Leave. When the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon claims that an “overwhelming majority” of Scottish people oppose leaving the EU, perhaps she needs to bear these figures in mind. Perhaps even more significantly, 48 per cent of Scottish voters say the EU referendum result should be respected with 52 per cent opposed (when “don’t knows” are excluded), an outcome within the margin of error of showing an equal split.

What these polling figures reveal is a growing mood amongst the public just to get Brexit done, to put this behind us, and move on to focussing on the issues that really matter to people. And there will be increasingly little sympathy for those politicians who seek to frustrate a Brexit deal which allows us to do just that.

Political opponents were certainly wrong-footed by Boris Johnson’s success in Europe last week. Labour now seem committed to a second referendum, when there is dwindling public support for going down this route. The Liberal Democrats, in defiance of their party’s name, now want to overturn the 2016 referendum result altogether and simply go back to where we were before.

As for the SNP, for weeks they have been telling us that there was no prospect of a deal. Nicola Sturgeon told the Scottish Parliament on 5 September that there were no meaningful negotiations going on, and that efforts to strike a deal were just a “sham”. These claims were repeated by Ian Blackford in the House of Commons, whilst Michael Russell at Holyrood repeated over and over that the UK Government was only interested in a no-deal Brexit. They have all been proved wrong.

Johnson looks like a winner

Appearing before the Scottish Parliament’s Finance and Constitution Committee on Monday, the Prime Minister’s effective deputy, Michael Gove, reminded us that what the SNP have always really wanted is a no-deal Brexit, believing that this will drive up support for independence. With his diplomatic success last week, Boris Johnson has shot their fox. But that will not stop SNP MPs in the House of Commons doing all they can to frustrate the progress of the withdrawal legislation.

The UK Government still has the challenge of getting the necessary Bill through both Houses of Parliament in a very short space of time. But the political outlook is now much more encouraging. If, in defiance of public opinion, MPs block the legislation, and we remain in the EU after 31 October, the case for a General Election is unanswerable.

In such an election, the Prime Minister would go to the country saying that he had agreed a Brexit deal with the EU, one that removed the Northern Irish backstop and delivered on the outcome of the 2016 referendum, and was thwarted by opposition MPs playing political games for their own partisan interests. Who would bet against a Conservative majority as the outcome from such a contest?

Alternatively, Parliament passes the Withdrawal Bill, we leave the EU at the end of October or shortly thereafter and enter a transition period, and in any subsequent election, Boris Johnson can present himself to the electorate as the leader who delivered what so many thought was impossible. Either way, he looks like a winner.

And I do not believe that the outcome in Scotland will be so different from that elsewhere in the UK. The SNP’s tactics in relation to Brexit have been misjudged from the very start, motivated by their overwhelming desire to hold a second independence referendum. But with the Prime Minister having delivered Brexit in the context of growing Scottish support for respecting the outcome of the 2016 referendum, the SNP pitch in a forthcoming election to overturn Brexit and hold indyref2 is one which will meet with substantial public resistance. Scottish Conservatives will go into that campaign with much more confidence than anyone thought possible just one week ago.

[pierre oreilly] 23/10/2019 08:27

Brexit is more akin to Celebrity get me out of here, rather than a serious political venture.

[excell1] 23/10/2019 08:22

We must have a majority government.Unfortunately, on purpose or not TM gave hers away.No more problems if the government had that majority.

[bargainbob] 23/10/2019 08:22

Close parliament

[pierre oreilly] 23/10/2019 08:18

Good point about the ge.

When Boris wins, expect high court cases here (and in the European court no doubt) challenging every aspect of the election, every procedural requirement examined in the tiniest detail and every slightly cloudy election related law to be retested.

The anti-democrats are on a roll. An election won't stop them.

The traitor chorus, all together now ... Don't stop me now, I'm having such a good time, I'm having a party.

[bspgamer] 23/10/2019 08:03

STOP BREXIT

[diku] 23/10/2019 08:00

Too much democracy spoils the broth... much anger, frustration and bitterness over a prolonged period...eventually people agree for the sake of agreeing...but there will be a sting in the tail in the future...

[xxxxxy] 23/10/2019 07:25

Democracy and Freedom actually.LEAVE and WTO

[jam2day] 23/10/2019 07:24

Ravings of lunatics

[xxxxxy] 23/10/2019 07:07

Leave on 31 October

By JOHNREDWOOD | Published: OCTOBER 23, 2019

As I expected yesterday the Commons voted for the Withdrawal Treaty Bill to have a second reading, then voted down the Timetable motion needed to allow further progress on the Bill.

Some MPs voted for the Bill, then switched and voted against its early proceeding. They did so knowing the PM has promised we leave, with or without a deal, on October 31.

In order to leave with this unhappy “deal” the Commons needed to pass all stages by Thursday so the Lords could do the same, to complete the Bill by end October, just 8 days away.

The only way forward from here that might deliver a good Brexit on time is to leave on 31 October without signing a Treaty, offering a free trade deal as we leave. I have been trying to get the government to do this for sometime. Maybe more will now see trying to compromise with a Remain Parliament by offering a watered down Brexit does not work.

[xxxxxy] 23/10/2019 06:55

Dear Brexiteer,

After more than three years of delays and parliamentary games there is a powerful sense of wanting to ‘just get Brexit done’. Feelings of Brexit fatigue have led some Leavers to welcome Boris Johnson’s deal as the best we are likely to get.

That is understandable. But it is a mistake. The Prime Minister’s deal is not a proper Brexit. It is far removed from what 17.4m of us voted for in 2016.

I can only suppose that pro-Brexit MPs backing the deal have not actually read the Withdrawal Agreement (WA) and the important Political Declaration (PD) that goes with it. These make up a new European Treaty that reheats 95 per cent of Theresa May’s deal.


Let’s compare it to what we thought we would get when we voted Leave. If it is passed into law, the PM’s Treaty will mean:
Britain remains under EU rules but with no vote, no voice, no veto.

During the Withdrawal Agreement’s extendable ‘transition period’ (which lasts until at least the end of 2020 and almost certainly years longer), we won’t withdraw from the EU at all but become non-voting members. We will still be trapped in the EU customs union and single market, subject to all existing EU laws and any punitive new ones they might pass (Articles 4.1, 4.2, 6, 41, 95.1, 127). And we’ll be under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) (Arts 4.4, 4.5, 86, 87, 89, 95.3, 131, 158, 163). The difference is we won’t have any say (Arts 7.1, 34). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
EU judges can still override our laws.

The ECJ – a foreign court – governs the Treaty and EU law takes precedence. Future British parliaments will be bound to obey ECJ rulings, and UK judges will be obliged to overturn laws passed by our Parliament if the ECJ says they don’t comply with the Treaty or the EU laws it enables. (Articles 4.4, 4.5, 86, 87, 89, 95.3, 131, 158, 163). In some cases, the ECJ will rule for years even after the transition ends. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?



We won’t control our fishing.

The dreadful Common Fisheries Policy continues in UK waters during the extendable transition period, but we will have no say in it (Article 130). That means huge foreign trawlers plundering our waters at the expense of our coastal communities. After the transition, the Political Declaration signs us up to sharing ‘access to water and quota shares’ (para 73) – which equals continued EU exploitation of UK fishing grounds. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
We still won’t be free to trade as we see fit.

Boris boasts of leaving the EU customs union. Yet the Political Declaration states any future free trade agreement with the EU must ensure ‘a level playing field’ (PD, para 17, 77) and ‘deep regulatory and customs cooperation’ (para 21). This means sticking to EU rules. It will be hard for the UK to reduce tariff barriers to cut the cost of living and make trade deals with other nations. The PD also requires we pursue ‘ambitious customs objectives that are in line with the Parties’ objectives and principles’ (para 22) – another restrictive EU customs union in all but name. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
We won’t have control of our tax or state aid policies .

EU law applies to the UK during the transition period (Article 127), and beyond that the Political Declaration obliges the UK to adopt EU rules on state aid rules and ‘relevant tax matters’ (para 77). This all means we can’t change tax rates to be more competitive and can’t assist a strategic industry such as British Steel. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
Britain can’t pursue an independent foreign policy.

The Treaty restricts UK sovereignty by preventing us taking ‘any action likely to conflict with or impede’ EU foreign policy (Article 129.6) – despite having no say in policy making. The UK will be signed up to all EU treaties, including new ones, throughout the transition period, and must ‘refrain…; from any action... which is likely to be prejudicial’ to EU interests within international organisations such as the United Nations Security Council and the WTO (Article 129 points 1 and 3). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
Britain can’t pursue an independent defence policy.

The Political Declaration commits us to security integration through the European Defence Agency and the European Defence Fund (para 102(c)). We will fund the EU’s military plans during the transition period at least, and British troops in EU battlegroups will be under foreign command (Articles 128.2, 129.7, 156, 157). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?



The United Kingdom will be divided.

The Treaty creates a de facto customs and regulatory border in the Irish Sea between Northern Ireland and Britain. Goods moving between NI and Britain will be checked. Citizens living in NI would effectively be staying in the EU, without any say in their laws, for at least four years after the transition and quite possibly forever. In other words, the UK gives up part of its sovereign territory —for what? (Protocol Articles 5 and 6.2). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?
We pay the EU billions and get nothing in return.
The Treaty commits us to pay a sum to be decided by the EU (WA, Part Five). The £39bn payment demanded is likely to be just the start, with billions more to follow. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

And we’ll be trapped by the Political Declaration.

The problems won't end with the transition period. Don’t be fooled just because the Political Declaration on future relations is not legally binding. Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement requires us to use ‘best endeavours, in good faith’ to negotiate a future deal in line with the PD. Any breach of this duty will see the EU haul Britain before an arbitration panel – half EU appointees, half pro-EU judges from the UK. And the panel must defer to the European court on anything concerning EU Law. If they rule that a UK law goes against the Political Declaration, UK courts will have to overturn that law (WD Articles 170-175). The Political Declaration is a trap from which there is no plausible escape. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

Can any Brexiteer inclined to support this Treaty honestly say that it amounts to a proper Brexit? A Clean-Break Brexit remains the best deal for Britain. We need a General Election for a Leaver alliance to win a big majority and make Brexit a reality.

Nigel Farage
Leader of The Brexit Party


Please forward this email to your friends

[sentimentrules] 22/10/2019 23:45

Will you really leave the UK after Brexit?

[minerve 2] 22/10/2019 23:40

Not really no.

[bspgamer] 22/10/2019 23:36

STOP BREXITstrategy and luck, you make interesting points about the EU, but so many livihoods are now dependant on EU membership, leaving at this time is economic and social suicide, which could have a hard left government in under Corbyn swept to power that would only see union bosses and there cronies benefit, while business is driven out of the country, and the poor once again, suffer most at the hands of government policy.I believe we should propose a free trade agreement with the EU that commits to workers rights, environmental protections and food standards, beyond that, we can co-operate with them on a case by case basis.If the EU won't compromise, then leave with no deal and start our economy again (we'll have to start again anyway given that the bank of england said we are on our way to a economic recession due to overborrowing, despite the events of 2008), DEMOCRACY is more important than our economic wealth.Operation Yellowhammer will have to be implemented, which at time of posting, Michael Gove (The Chanchellor of the Duchy of Lancaster - Head of brexit preperations) has said he has triggered the said operation on an interview with Sky NewsIf things are worse than planned, then the secretive Operation Black Swan will have to implemented to protect the interests of the government, including rationing supplies, food, water, electricity and other provisions, as well as declaring martial law and dismantling protests and civil panic and unrest, with detention centre camps being identified for use to inprison protestors and counter-protestors as what will follow from a no-deal brexit.But once again, the time has come for the crisis of the European Superstate ambition to be crushed now, or risk being absorbed into it's malevolent ambitions to seek war with Russia and get in bed with anyone protecting their interests, risking nuclear war and the destruction of all civilisation, all because some overpriveleged Eurocrats are greedy for more power and money.Democracy > EconomicsAbout the Union of the UK, if i where prime minister, i would pad out my cabinet with ministers from all parties, an SNP MP to take the role of Scotland Secretary for example, A Labour MP to be incharge of matters such as housing and welfare, Green MP to Environment secretary, this would create an enviroment of cooperation and comprimise, rather than conflict, division and ultimately the collapse of the union if Northern Ireland is stolen by the EU or Scottish Seperatists get their way. I would also move the house of commons around the country, to show that it's government for the UK, not Westminster.I would structure governance as follows:1. Monarch (Head of state - figure head)2. Houses of Parliment (Commons and Lords)- with checks and balances between the courts and the executive as well3. Devolved administrations (Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland). I'd also introduce a devolved parliment for England, if they consented via a fair and properly conducted, legally binding referendum.4. Unitary Authorities (with representatives from covered villages and towns for localised representation)We must have government to protect the interests of it's citizens (subjects as under the monarchy of the UK), but it shouldn't be a circle of self enrichment whilst the rest of the workforce stagnates. Government as needed, not as desired by career politians, or outside foreign powers that seek control over our laws, armies, democracy, and ultimately, our way of life.