Crawshaw Share Discussion Threads

[mr hangman] 16/5/2016 16:02

Now that's a cure for insomnia

[gengulphus] 16/5/2016 15:58

DiscoDave4,

So why is it that difficult to register a trade as exactly what it is, either a buy or a sell.

It's dead easy to do that, and you can do it for yourself: every trade is both a buy and a sell. For example, if I go and buy £1k of RDSB shares using the RSP system (the standard "quote valid for 15 seconds" method of trading), then the resulting trade is both a buy by me and a sell by the RSP provider.

What you're looking for is not whether the trade is a buy or a sell - as I said, it's both - but information about the buyer and the seller. Specifically, you're looking for information about whether each of them is a market maker, RSP provider, or in some similar role involving offering both to sell shares and to buy them, selling them at a bit above the price they'll buy them at and aiming to make a profit on that spread. If the seller is in such a market-maker-like role and the buyer is not, the trade is a 'buy', while if the buyer is in such a role and the seller is not, the trade is a 'sell' (putting quotes around the terms to distinguish them from the literal meaning of the trade being both a buy and a sell).

But what if both participants are in such a role? E.g. suppose you and various others are buying CRAW shares and getting them from RSP provider A, who is offering them at the best buying price, while I and various others are selling them to RSP provider B, who is offering the best selling price. Both RSP providers are a bit slow to adjust their prices when they get quite a few orders in a row, and so provider A ends up with quite a substantial short position in the share, while provider B ends up with quite a substantial long position. It makes sense for both of them to agree a trade between them, with provider B selling a good number of shares to provider A at some intermediate price, giving each of them a small profit and substantially reduced exposure to price movements. Is the resulting trade a 'buy' or a 'sell'?

And more importantly, what if neither participant is in such a role? E.g. long-term investor X wants to sell a big block of shares - far bigger than a market maker or RSP provider can take the risk of holding on their own account - while long-term investor Y wants to buy it. They agree a mutually-acceptable price (quite possibly using a market maker to get in contact and negotiate with each other) and then X sells directly to Y. Is the resulting trade a 'buy' or a 'sell'?

There are also problems with defining the market-maker-like roles completely clearly. For example, while market makers are obliged to keep both buy and sell quotes active during market hours, RSP providers are not - i.e. an RSP provider can move to being purely a buyer or purely a seller if they want (and sometimes they do want...). Equally, nothing actually prevents any market participant taking a market-maker-like role if they want: anyone can produce buy and sell limit orders with the selling price a bit above the buying price and see whether they can make a profit on the spread - and if they have a decent amount of market experience, they can get a DMA account and enter those orders directly into the LSE's electronic order book...

I'm sure that it would be technically feasible to produce a system that classified trades as 'buys', 'sells', 'boths' and 'neithers' according to which participant(s) were in non-market-maker-like roles. But I'm equally sure that quite a few trades, and in particular quite a lot of the biggest trades, would end up as 'boths' or 'neithers', making it much less obvious whether buying or selling pressure was dominating the market, which is what those who would like every trade to be classified as a 'buy' or a 'sell' are really after. I.e. while such a system is technically feasible, I doubt that it would achieve anything useful.

And I also suspect it would be just as vulnerable to being manipulated as the current system of merely publishing the trade price and leaving people to work out for themselves whether they think the trade is a 'buy', a 'sell' or something else (or if they don't want to take the trouble to do that, letting a simple-minded computer algorithm attempt the job for them). The manipulation methods would be different and probably a bit more work to implement, but a bit of playing around with using intermediaries who are / aren't in market-maker-like roles and/or switch between being in them and not being in them could hide what is really going on pretty well...

Gengulphus

[playful] 16/5/2016 13:47

Hope they have enough baps as everyone one will be wearing the shirt today its the victory parade through the town..

[shanklin] 16/5/2016 13:43

Blimey, Crawshaws are going to be heaving given that today is the day for...

[davidosh] 16/5/2016 12:51

According to Twitter it is a free sausage bap on offer at the Leicester store today

We are offering everyone wearing an official @LCFC team shirt on the 16th May a free sausage bap. Please retweet!! @vardy7

[davidosh] 16/5/2016 10:57

DD4....To be honest I think investors and certainly ShareSoc have higher priorities such as lax regulation on AIM, remuneration guidelines etc.

[mr hangman] 16/5/2016 10:08

Some people, really have to much time on their hands

[discodave4] 16/5/2016 10:01

Agree, I signed the petition more from a technical perspective and the principle that why shouldn't everyone know what the actual trades are rather than guessing. However, as a longer term investor it makes not a jot of difference to my buy/sell decisions, yes it's more relevant to day traders.Only posted on a few threads, mainly AIM shares, if others post the link elsewhere then perhaps a publication will also support the petition, or a journalist who posts on ADVFN (yourself?).ThanksDD

[supernumerary] 16/5/2016 10:00

I went through this with the various regulators years ago. It ended up with the SE regulator informing me that while they agreed it was technically feasible, the current market participants were happy with how the market was working and saw no reason for change. In other words, we're all right Jack, and your opinion is of zero importance.

DD - you're flogging a dead horse, forget it.

[davidosh] 16/5/2016 09:41

DiscoDave4.....If you wanted to do a formal campaign that automatically goes out to thousands of investors and can be presented to journalists it would have been useful to involve ShareSoc but to be honest I am not so sure this would have been high on the agenda as that data is more for those with a traders mentality than investor mentality surely ?

[discodave4] 16/5/2016 09:33

Hahaha pmslKeep your head well buried in the sand!.DD

[mr hangman] 16/5/2016 09:18

After reading DD's post, i had to take a second look at the calender,
thought it might be April Fools

[discodave4] 16/5/2016 08:32

So why is it that difficult to register a trade as exactly what it is, either a buy or a sell.BG, in your own words, if you didn't like what I posted, you didn't have to look at it, it's that simple!.DD

[briangeeee] 16/5/2016 01:25

DiscoDave4, if you don't like BUY/SELL indications, don't look at them. It's that simple - really! They're just indicators of whether the execution price was closer to the offer or the bid. Totally meaningless and irrelevant. It's not a global or an AIM or a Market Maker conspiracy. Just one day someone thought it would be helpful. It's not, so ignore it. Basically if you can't make your own mind up about whether you should be buying or selling, and are guided by other trades, you shouldn't be let loose with a piggy bank, never mind a dealing account. HTH.

[playful] 10/5/2016 23:30

That's a fair appraisal but if your under retirement age time is your friend with Crawshaws.

[buffythebuffoon] 10/5/2016 23:17

There really is little doubt the rollout will be successful. What people need to consider is whether it is for them.

It's really only when the rollout stops that the real money will be made. Sure the market is forward looking to some extent, but the money made will be going out the back door as soon as it comes in the front one for quite a number of years to come.

Perhaps not one for you if you are nearing retirement and have no heirs?

Buffy

[playful] 10/5/2016 22:54

We need to improve our rule 26 house keeping on significant shareholders. This information should be updated at least every 6 months, come on boys lets not see standards slipping.

The fact you are very late with your RNS announcements is concerning.

[briangeeee] 10/5/2016 08:02

I was wondering about the colour and the missing 's'!

In the style of "Every Lidl helps"