Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[jonwig] 20/9/2017 09:50

I think the chart's adrift. Quote is 3875 - 3909 and trades in recent days haven't been as low as 3800.

[jaz36] 20/9/2017 09:25

Any idea what caused the share price drop, surely can't be the modest share issue?

[50plus] 15/9/2017 12:38

Gengulphus, thank you, guess I'll give it a go and find out :)

[gengulphus] 14/9/2017 03:59

My basic question is, would this 4x rule still apply if I was trading within a Share Dealing ISA?

I'm pretty certain the answer is simply no: everything that happens inside an ISA is completely 'invisible' to CGT.

The only sort-of-exceptions are when assets (other than sterling cash!) are transferred between an ISA and non-tax-sheltered ownership. But those are half 'inside' and half 'outside' the ISA, and it's only the 'outside' part that's 'visible'. E.g. if one withdraws shares from an ISA, then as far as CGT is concerned, the shares appear out of thin air - and they need a base value for subsequent CGT purposes. That value is their market value on the day of withdrawal, and the ISA manager is supposed to tell the client what it is.

Gengulphus

[50plus] 13/9/2017 17:15

Gengulphus, I'd very much appreciate your opinion regarding the following please:

This last year or two my Disposals have been in excess of 100k which meant that I was required to inform the Tax office, even though I'd not made a profit that exceeded the annual CGT amount.

The reason, as explained by the tax office was that my disposals were more than four times greater than the annual CGT amount for an indiviual.

My basic question is, would this 4x rule still apply if I was trading within a Share Dealing ISA?

[gengulphus] 04/9/2017 09:51

Extrader,

The main questions facing you are:

* Which residences do you have? Residences are places where you live (in the everyday sense of the word - you certainly can't make a property your residence just by camping out there for one night) and have some sort of ownership rights. From what you say, the holiday home in Europe is a residence of yours, and the rental property in the UK may well be one as well - basically, being rented under a tenancy gives enough ownership rights.

* If you have more than one residence, have you written to the taxman nominating one of those properties as your main residence since the last time your set of residences changed? (which I'd guess will be a divorce-related time, namely when you moved out of the marital home and into the rented property).

* If you have sent such a nomination to the taxman, was it within 2 years after that time? If so, the property you nominated (presumably the holiday home) is the one that you can get private residence relief on. Or if it's still less than 2 years since that time, write such a nomination and send it to the taxman now in order to get yourself into that position!

* If it's more than 2 years since the last time your set of residences changed and you haven't sent such a nomination to the taxman, which is your main residence would normally be determined on the facts. There's not really enough detail in your posts for me to have any real idea whether the facts would support the holiday home or the rented property being your main residence, but in general, I would expect things like time spent in the two properties, which address you use as your main contact address (for banks, utilities, HMRC, etc) and other facts that indicate you're living at the property rather than just staying there to contribute.

* However, what I say in that last point does include the word "normally", and there is an Extra-Statutory Concession (i.e. an exception to the normal rules) that may well apply here. It's described in and your case seems to match it quite well. So you may well still be able to make a nomination of the holiday property as your main residence even if the normal 2-year time limit has expired.

The other thing to note is that, assuming you can nominate the holiday home as your main residence (either normally or via ESC/D21) or that the facts show it is your main residence anyway, that only says that it's been your main residence since your set of residences last changed. Your main residence before that needs to be determined similarly, and if for example you previously had the marital home and the holiday home as residences and didn't nominate one of them as you and your wife's main residence (a married couple can only have one main residence between them), it may well be that that facts show that the marital home was previously your main residence.

So it might well be that the holiday home ends up being counted as your main residence for the last part of your total period of ownership and not for an earlier part. In that case, the basic principle is that only a fraction (total length of time as main residence)/(total length of time owned) of the gain gets private residence relief - there might be some adjustments to that, but the ones I can think of offhand probably don't apply.

The divorce might also involve some complications to do with shared ownership of the holiday home beforehand and sole ownership afterwards. I suspect not, but I don't know enough about how CGT interacts with divorce arrangements to know for certain, so all I can do is raise it as a possible issue, not resolve it.

Finally, as far as chapter and verse is concerned, I could give you a whole lot of links to HMRC's Capital Gains Manual - but you've already seen that, so it would largely be a waste of time. I have given the link about ESC/D21 because it may well be a crucial point, and is easily overlooked as apparently highly-technical material - and I am willing to try to provide "chapter and verse" links about any other specific points that you have trouble with. But not about everything to do with private residence relief that might possibly have something to do with your situation!

Gengulphus

[azalea] 03/9/2017 13:22

Gengulphus
Re CGT . Thank you.

[extrader] 02/9/2017 09:42

Hi all,

I'm UK resident for tax purposes, but spend much of the year overseas, either travelling or in a holiday home in Europe.

I am based in a rental property in the UK (post divorce) and own the property in Europe outright.

With Brexit loomimg and the £ weak, I'm now considering selling the overseas property, on which - on an FX basis at least - I would expect a reasonable capital gain. I am non-resident for tax purposes in the European country and in any event would not expect to record any meaningful capital gain there in Euro terms.

Can anyone clarify whether I would be CG exempt in the UK under the Private (main) Residence Relief rules ? And - if so - point me to 'chapter and verse' ?

I've waded through the HMRC Capital Gains internal manual without success.....and yet my situation cannot be that uncommon.

Many thanks in advance for any guidance.

[amalanchier3] 02/9/2017 09:41

Hi Gengulphus

A very complicated area of taxation.

Thank you very much for the time and effort that you have put into answering my question. Lots of reading and research to do - cold towel round head time!!!!

Regards

A

[gengulphus] 02/9/2017 06:58

azalea,

How much is the Capital Gains allowance?

Varies between tax years. For the current 2017/18 tax year, £11,300 - that's the figure that affects CGT planning of sales you do now. For the 2016/17 tax year, £11,100 - that's the figure that affects the tax return for that tax year, which you might be filling in now. For a couple more tax years, see . Further back will probably require a bit of searching!

Gengulphus

[gengulphus] 02/9/2017 06:40

tmckenzie1,

Tax treatment of CFD's (Contracts for difference)

Is this CGT or Income tax ?
...
As an interest, I have a CFD account. Most days I take out a few positions on the direction of UK shares. Lets say I buy 3 - 5 positions in a typical day. I can hold these positions from anywhere between a few hours upwards to a few weeks or more. I basically buy a position and await the movement in the direction I hope will make me a profit.
...
For tax purposes, would HMRC class this as trading (and therefore Income tax) or speculation / gambling therefore CGT.

Almost certainly as speculation / investment and therefore CGT. (Gambling would be neither Income Tax nor CGT, which is why spreadbets aren't subject to either. And sorry, I don't know exactly whether the boundary between speculation and gambling lies!)

I say "almost certainly" rather than "certainly" because it is possible for an individual to make investing their "trade" and subject to Income Tax (which automatically makes it not subject to CGT). That's not something that looks good on the tax rates (20%/40%/45% for Income Tax vs 10%/20% for CGT), but it does make a lot more costs offsettable against the profits and so could be beneficial.

However, whether investing counts as someone's "trade" is determined on the facts about how they do it - i.e. they cannot choose the tax treatment freely or directly, but only indirectly by doing it in a way that qualifies it as their "trade". And it's pretty hard to make it qualify - it can be done by buying and selling sufficiently often and in a sufficiently "professional" manner, but I'm fairly certain from what I've read about the question that what you're doing is not enough.

That stuff I've read is mostly from HMRC's Business Income Manual, the relevant section of which is Pages BIM56830 - BIM56860 and BIM56880 are especially relevant.

Gengulphus

[azalea] 02/9/2017 06:35

How much is the Capital Gains allowance?

[tmckenzie1] 01/9/2017 14:59

Tax treatment of CFD's (Contracts for difference)

Is this CGT or Income tax ?

I basically have a portfolio of property investments which I let. This provides an income for my family to live from.

As an interest, I have a CFD account. Most days I take out a few positions on the direction of UK shares. Lets say I buy 3 - 5 positions in a typical day. I can hold these positions from anywhere between a few hours upwards to a few weeks or more. I basically buy a position and await the movement in the direction I hope will make me a profit.

(Example...I will buy a CFD long position in a UK company, lets say Lloyds at 63p and aim to sell for 64p. A 100,000 long position would gain me £1000 minus deductions. If the shareprice rises soon after I buy I will sell, if it takes a week or three to rise then I just hold until that happens and then sell.)

For tax purposes, would HMRC class this as trading (and therefore Income tax) or speculation / gambling therefore CGT.

Thank You.

[finkwot] 01/9/2017 14:50

Thanks again, Gengulphus

As my dentist said to me about flossing - you have to learn to enjoy it. I shall have to learn to enjoy the arcana of tax rules, and it's much easier to achieve that with such clear and thorough help.

[amalanchier3] 30/8/2017 20:52

Hi Gengulphus

I would appreciate your views on how the section 104 pooling works on an AIM share which qualifies for business property relief.

I have made a number of transactions in one AIM share, some of which have been held for over 2 yeas. The remainder have been held for less than one year.

To simplify the example, lets assume that I have 5 trades undertaken more than two years ago totalling 100 shares at a total cost of £10. Lets also assume that I have made another 10 trades in the same share in the last year totalling 100 shares at a cost of £30.

Pooling these shares gives me 200 shares at a cost of £40.

100 of these shares is now outside of my estate and are valued at £20 in the pool. If I give these 100 shares to a family member, am I now giving away £20 rather than
the actual cost of £10? Or do they get "de - pooled"?

If I have to revert to treating the qualifing shares at their original cost, can I freely choose which shares to give away or is there an HMRC order in which the trades have to be treated?

Is there any way to check whether any particular AIM share qualifies for BPR?

Very many thanks.

A

[finkwot] 30/8/2017 15:32

Thank you, Gengulphus. I'm now working through the figures. If I'd done my homework in advance the overall amount of work would have been less, but then I already knew that - it's one of the (few) things I learned at University.

So for tax purposes, when calculating a gain or loss, the purchase price includes costs such as commission and stamp duty, but the sale proceeds are taken gross, without deducting costs?

[david77] 30/8/2017 09:35

Type a list in wordpad then copy and paste to the stonebanks calculator
Company
date (6 figs 290817), b or s, share price (pence), total (£xx.pp)

[finkwot] 29/8/2017 09:05

I've been acting on the assumption that the 30-day rule works in both directions - ie the rule applies if I sell shares and then buy them back within 30 days, and also if I buy shares and then sell them within 30 days.

Am I right? Or does it only apply when shares are sold first and bought back later?

If I'm wrong, fortunately there's only one transaction where I have it the wrong way round. It went something like this:

I bought 10 shares on Monday
I sold 9 shares on Monday
I sold 1 share on Wednesday.

In this example, do I match the 10 shares bought with the 10 sold under the 30-day rule, or do I match only 9, and calculate the gain on the 1 share with reference to the original purchase price?

Thanks!

[david77] 20/7/2017 19:59

The stonebanks.co.uk website includes translation routines so that you can run your data on both calculators. I think that you can be reasonably confident if they both give the same result - within a few £s due to rounding errors.

[m_k_hubbert] 20/7/2017 15:06

1MB, You'll also need to consider position for prior tax years as if your disposals have amounted to 4x annual CGT allowance you should have filed a CGT return for those years (regardless of being under the annual gains allowance). Based on current allowance of £11.3k if disposals amount to >£45.2k for 2017/18 you are required to file a CGT return. At 100 trades per year that's an average of just £452 per trade to hit the reporting threshold (or £904 per disposal if the '100 count' includes both acquisitions and disposals).

[1mb] 20/7/2017 13:30

Hello all

I need to book a CGT loss for 2016/17 and have been advised as i havent completed a self assesment previously that i need to write to HMRC advising the calculation resulting in the loss. I made round 100 trades that year resulting in the loss does anyone know if i just summarise this or have to detail every trade?

Thanks in advance