Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  +0.00p +0.00% 4,330.00p 4,320.00p 4,340.00p - - - 7,602 09:56:02
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments 4.7 3.7 51.1 84.7 433

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

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DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
17/4/2015
17:36
GengulphusWhen bedding shares bought from a nominal acc. of the max isa of 15,000 to isa acc . Does the first 11,100 count as cgt allowance and the remaining 3900 is taxed or does is the whole 15,000 exempt from tax as you are bedding it across
theuniversal
14/4/2015
20:30
The calculators on www.CGTcalculator.com and option 2 on www.stonebanks.co.uk have been designed to provide the info required by the taxman. I have submitted a paper return with the stonebanks calcs for a number of years.
david77
14/4/2015
18:34
My5harebox, Am I correct in thinking that I now have until October 2015 to do this for the 2014/15 tax year and do you know if they require the information in a particular format, can I just send a spreadsheet ? There are basically two deadlines: you have until 5 October 2015 (half a year after the end of the 2014/2015 tax year) to tell HMRC about owing CGT, and until 5 April 2019 (four years after the end of that tax year) to claim losses for that tax year. That leads to a rather peculiar situation if you wait until after 5 October 2015 to inform HMRC: because you haven't claimed the losses, you owe CGT for the 2014/2015 tax year - but you still have 3.5 years in which you can wipe out that CGT owed by claiming the losses... I don't understand just how that situation gets resolved - in particular, whether a penalty gets assessed for owing CGT and not informing HMRC in time, and if so, whether then claiming the losses in order to no longer owe CGT results in the penalty being cancelled. But I don't see any point in trying to find out - just inform HMRC by 5 October 2015 and avoid any awkward questions! In fact, plan to inform them well before that deadline, just in case of unexpected delays... As regards the format, I would do it by a printout if submitting on paper and a PDF if submitting online - I've a vague memory (which I might well be wrong about) that attachments to an online tax return are supposed to be PDFs. What I'm certain about is that PDFs are accepted for online returns, as that's what I use. I'm uncertain whether other formats are acceptable, as I haven't tried using them - and they might well not be because of the danger of them containing viruses. Both printouts and PDFs can generally be generated easily from spreadsheets - if you have any difficulty, give details of your system and I'm pretty sure I or someone else will be able to tell you how. The other thing I would suggest is that you use the "Computation Working Sheet" on page CGN 6 of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/420007/sa108-notes-2015.pdf as a guide to how much information the taxman is looking for. The actual format of that sheet is very wasteful of space - one can fit the same details of a straightforward acquisition and disposal of the same asset on to 1-2 lines of a spreadsheet, and in my experience corresponding details of something more complicated don't take up all that many more lines if thought out carefully. So I wouldn't try to copy that sheet's actual format unless I had only a few, very straightforward computations to report, especially as page CGN 1 of the same link makes it clear that that sheet is not always suitable. But as a general guide to the level of detail the taxman is looking for, I think it's good. Gengulphus
gengulphus
10/4/2015
03:01
Thanks for your excellent reply Gengulphus Sadly I am inside the CGT allowance because of the net balance of losses against gains and on that basis from what you have explained it seem that I will need to send detail to HMRC. Also looks like I will probably be hit by the HMRC reflex response to fill in a self assessment tax return. :( Am I correct in thinking that I now have until October 2015 to do this for the 2014/15 tax year and do you know if they require the information in a particular format, can I just send a spreadsheet ? Cheers.
my5harebox
03/4/2015
20:34
I am a basic rate tax payer and do not normally send in a tax return. This year although I am within allowable CGT (£11k) gross transactions are more than 44K. I am not wanting to carry realised losses forwards so do you think I need to inform HMRC ? Depends on why you're within the CGT allowance. If you're within the CGT allowance because your total gains for the tax year are above the CGT allowance but you have enough losses for the tax year to reduce them to the CGT allowance or below, so that your net gains are within the CGT allowance, you're caught by the rule that you need to 'claim' losses in order to be able to use them to reduce gains at all. Since 'claiming' a loss basically just means informing HMRC about it, that means that you do have to inform HMRC about the situation. Strictly speaking, I believe you only have to inform HMRC about the losses in that case, not the gains as well - but that will leave it unclear whether the losses are carried forward or not (if the losses are less than or equal to the gains, they're all used up reducing the gains and none of them are carried forward; if the losses are greater than the gains, the excess losses are carried forward). My guess is that the taxman would respond to that or other uncertainty by asking you to submit a tax return... If you instead give details of all the gains and losses for the tax year, making it clear that the losses are less than the gains but enough to reduce the gains below the CGT allowance, so that you don't have any CGT to pay nor any CGT losses to carry forward, you get rid of that uncertainty and so are more likely to avoid being asked to fill in a tax return. (No promises, though!) The alternative is that your total gains for the tax year without deducting losses are within the CGT allowance, so that you don't need to deduct losses in order to pay no CGT and so don't have a reason to want to claim losses (unless the losses are greater than the gains, allowing the excess losses to be carried forward - but you've indicated that isn't the case). If that's the case, I'm reasonably certain you don't need to inform HMRC. In particular, I believe the issue of disposal proceeds being over 4 times the CGT allowance is only relevant to people who are asked to fill in a tax return. https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/work-out-need-to-pay does seem to say otherwise, but it doesn't seem to match up to more technical HMRC material (in particular, with http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/salfmanual/SALF210.htm , which is about the obligations on people who are not sent a tax return) and it looks to me very much like a failure to transfer the information correctly when it was moved to the fairly new www.gov.uk website - see http://boards.fool.co.uk/hmm-13191211.aspx for my reasons for saying that. (Having said that, I'm not a tax professional, just an interested and experienced layman - which is why I say "reasonably certain" and "believe" rather than "certain" and "know" above.) Gengulphus
gengulphus
03/4/2015
19:47
Pedr01, The following quote is from the RNS "Any gain on the sale proceeds on the Disposal received by the Company at completion is not expected to be chargeable to tax as the Company is advised that it is likely to receive a substantial shareholding exemption pursuant to Schedule 7AC to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992" ... That's about taxation of the company itself by Corporation Tax, not about taxation of its shareholders. It took a bit of looking on www.legislation.gov.uk to make certain of that, as the site only has the original version of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 (or TCGA1992 for short), but an 'advanced search' for the keyword "Schedule 7AC" found the Finance Act 2002, whose Schedule 8 amended TCGA1992 by inserting a Schedule 7AC into it. It's quite a substantial Schedule, but one only has to read its paragraph 1(1) to see that it's about taxation of a company that holds shares in another company - see near the start of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/23/schedule/8#text%3D%22Schedule%207AC%22 . Also, what the RNS http://www.investegate.co.uk/quindell-plc--qpp-/rns/proposed-sale-of-professional-services-division/201503300705008060I/ says about the return of capital is: "Majority of cash proceeds from the Disposal to fund substantial return of capital to Shareholders, expected in the second half of 2015 - precise amount of any distribution to Shareholders has not yet been determined but the Directors expect that, in aggregate, the initial tranche will be up to £500 million (representing in excess of £1 per share); further cash distributions dependent on the deferred cash consideration, business disposals of non-core businesses and underlying performance;" That's quite vague about both the amount and the timing of the return(s) of capital, making it pretty clear that details aren't yet known - about all that's known is that it's expected to be 3-9 months away, which means there's plenty of time for them to decide on the details. That's also confirmed by a search for a shareholder circular. There is one, which can be found by Googling "Quindell investor relations" to find http://www.quindell.com/investor-relations/investor-home , then looking at that page's 'Key Documents' list to find "Proposed Sale of Professional Services Division and Notice of General Meeting", dated 30/03/15. Downloading that produces http://www.quindell.com/images/uploads/irdownloads2015/20150330_PSD_GM.pdf , a skim read of which says that it's calling a General Meeting of the company to get shareholder approval of the sale. Searching that pdf for "return" then finds similar wording in its section 2.3 on page 8 to that in the RNS, followed by: "2.4 Timing of the return of capital to Shareholders If the Disposal completes, the Company anticipates that, in order to make the return of capital to Shareholders, it will be necessary for the Company to undertake a reduction of capital as it is likely to have insufficient distributable reserves in order to return the level of capital expected by the Board to be returned. Consequently, the Board expects the reduction of capital and initial return of capital (which the Company will endeavour to structure in a tax efficient manner) to be made to Shareholders in the second half of 2015 following the completion of the audit of the Group’s accounts for the year ended 31 December 2014 and implementation of the relevant steps in order to effect a distribution. Depending on the cash proceeds of the Deferred Consideration Cases, the obligation to hold certain of the initial cash consideration in an escrow account (as further set out in paragraph 5 of Part 2), the sale of non-core assets and the ongoing performance of the retained Technology Division, further returns of capital will occur over time." The "(which the Company will endeavour to structure in a tax efficient manner)" part of that in particular makes it clear that details of how the return of capital will be done and how it will affect shareholders taxwise are yet to be decided. In short, I'm afraid all one can conclude right now about how it will affect you and other shareholders is that you need to await developments. Gengulphus
gengulphus
03/4/2015
02:07
Gengulphus Thank you for that. :) very helpful. I am a basic rate tax payer and do not normally send in a tax return. This year although I am within allowable CGT (£11k) gross transactions are more than 44K. I am not wanting to carry realised losses forwards so do you think I need to inform HMRC ? Reading Info and not sure because it seems to only be a requirement if you do self assessment. Cheers
my5harebox
02/4/2015
17:22
Hi Gengulphus The company is Quindell (QPP), which has suffered a catastrophic collapse in shareprice. The company is in the process of selling off it's Legal/Proffesional Services division leaving a Technology Division to concentrate on Insurance / Telematics related business. My £cost base is higher than the proposed capital return. The following quote is from the RNS "Any gain on the sale proceeds on the Disposal received by the Company at completion is not expected to be chargeable to tax as the Company is advised that it is likely to receive a substantial shareholding exemption pursuant to Schedule 7AC to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992" ... ... and my first thought is that I should be able to reduce my cost base after the capital return. Thanks loads PETER http://www.investegate.co.uk/quindell-plc--qpp-/rns/proposed-sale-of-professional-services-division/201503300705008060I/
pedr01
02/4/2015
16:59
Yes, that looks right. The 11/11/14 sale matches first the 12/11/14 buy under the 30-day rule, realising a gain of £10k*4000/5000 - £5k = £3k, then the 14/11/14 buy also under the 30-day rule, realising neither a gain nor a loss (calculation £10k*1000/5000 - £2k = £0). Total gains for the tax year £3k. Then the 6/4/15 sale matches the S104 pool consisting of the pre-20/7/14 S104 pool plus the 12/2/15 purchase, realising a loss of £15k - (£25k+£10k) = -£20k. Provided of course that you don't then repurchase on 6/4/15 or any of the following 30 days. Gengulphus
gengulphus
02/4/2015
14:01
Hi Gengulphus From your previous explanations am I correct with the following: 20/7/14 hold 5000 ABC 104 pool of shares ave cost 25K 11/11/14 Stop loss triggers Sell 5000 ABC shares for 10k loss of 15K 12/11/14 buy back 4000 ABC shares for 5k 14/11/14 buy back 1000 ABC shares for 2k So now hold 5000 ABC but 30 day rule means shares are matched and so 10k sale minus (5k + 2k) = 3k CGT profit for tax year 14/15 12/2/15 buy 10000 ABC shares for 10k So now hold 15000 ABC shares for 10k + 25k = 35k 6/4/15 sell 15000 ABC shares for 15k so for CGT this is a loss 20k in 15/16 tax year. Is this how it works.? Seems difficult because most examples relate to making a profit, not a loss. TIA. Steve.
my5harebox
01/4/2015
11:37
Pedr01, "Capital Return" is a rather general term used to describe various different schemes for companies to distribute cash to their shareholders. All or most of those schemes have CGT consequences, and many have Income Tax consequences as well - but those consequences depend a great deal on the details of the scheme. The net result is that we cannot really answer your question usefully without knowing which Capital Return by which company you're talking about... Let us know and we may be able to help. About the only thing I can say in the meantime is that the company usually has to produce a Shareholder Circular or similar document giving details of the Capital Return, usually makes the document available on the company website, and there is usually a taxation section somewhere in it. Might take a bit of digging through the website to find the document, and more digging through its wording to work out what it's saying about taxation, though! Gengulphus
gengulphus
30/3/2015
08:29
Does anyone know the tax implications of a Capital Return ???
pedr01
28/3/2015
20:36
Bookmarked. Excellent thread.
chemistdude
28/3/2015
13:54
Can anyone help me please. My 91 year old Dad will have to pay CGT for the first time ever this year. I know what to do with his shares sales but he also sold a fund Fidelity multi asset strategic OEIC which he purchased for £25000 four years ago. Over the last four tax years he has been sent a tax voucher for this fund for dividends reinvested into the fund giving a gross, tax deducted and net figure. He has not been paid any cash dividends. The net figure over the four years totals £552. The number of units he owns in the fund has not changed over the four years. For CGT purposes is his cost £25000 or £25552? Many thanks
bunlop
02/3/2015
18:10
I had Salamander shares and the company has been taken over by Ophir; I have received no cash, only Ophir shares. How do I represent this in the cgt calculator, i.e. what letter or letters do I put in the first column?
alanuk2
23/2/2015
15:59
Thanks Gengulphus. I'll do some reading
david77
23/2/2015
14:32
I have some Angle plc (AGL) shares and have applied for some under their open offer. The new shares will come with EIS tax relief so I will not include them on my list of share deals for CGT calcs. If I subsequently sell some AGL shares, can I choose whether the shares sold were EIS shares or not? I don't think so - there appear to be special share identification rules for EIS shares: see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vcmmanual/vcm20140.htm and the pages it links to. Don't expect me to explain them, though - there look to be a lot of interactions with various reliefs that I at best only half understand! And is are the CGT calcs for non-EIS shares affected? The same link indicates there is no pooling of EIS shares and other matching rules don't apply, which I think indicates that the CGT calculations for non-EIS shares happen independently apart from the issue of whether it is EIS or non-EIS shares that have been sold. I.e. I think basically no, the CGT calculations for non-EIS shares are not affected. Gengulphus
gengulphus
22/2/2015
13:18
I have some Angle plc (AGL) shares and have applied for some under their open offer. The new shares will come with EIS tax relief so I will not include them on my list of share deals for CGT calcs. If I subsequently sell some AGL shares, can I choose whether the shares sold were EIS shares or not? And are the CGT calcs for non-EIS shares affected?
david77
07/2/2015
22:21
I have a SIPP account which I don't pay CGT or taxes on dividend, advantage of SIPP against normal trading account. Is the status of the SIPP account changes to normal trading account i.e paying CGT,..as soon as I started taking income as a pension? Or it stays as SIPP even after taking pension?
karateboy
05/2/2015
15:15
ok I will try that - thanks!
red nutter
02/2/2015
17:07
Change it from the date you bought it, and add a comment to your input file to say what you've done. I don't remember exactly what facilities CGTcalculator has, but if possible use a comment that will be echoed to the output. You could normally also do it the other way, as long as you made certain that the amounts for the fictitious sale and purchase on the day of the name change were identical and that the fictitious sale resulted in a gain/loss calculation result of £0.00 - i.e. neither a gain nor a loss. But if you were unlucky, I think that fictitious sale and purchase might change the way sales and purchases were matched to each other, resulting in an incorrect calculation. It's easier and simpler not to have to think through whether that actually could happen and how to detect whether it has done if so... More generally, try to avoid techniques with either of the calculators that involve making up fictitious sales and purchases - i.e. ones that didn't really happen. They're generally at risk of incorrect matching of sales to purchases and consequent incorrect results if one is unlucky about the dates - and the only real way to guard against that is to do the calculation by hand and compare with the calculator's results, which rather defeats the object of using the calculator in the first place! Gengulphus
gengulphus
27/1/2015
17:18
Hi - I am using hxxp://www.cgtcalculator.com and wanted to know how I enter a share name change from one company name to another if covers different tax years. Do I just change it from the date I bought or pick the date the name changed and do a sell and buy for same price but diff company name. Thanks red nutter
red nutter
19/1/2015
18:17
Thanks Gengulphus ... appreciate it ...
pedr01
19/1/2015
14:15
Pedr01, I cannot answer your actual question properly, but I have found a couple of links you might find useful: https://www.gov.uk/estimate-self-assessment-penalties allows you to get an estimate of the amount owing, including penalties. It only seems to cover past tax years for which penalties already exist, so you might have to give it information as though things happened a year or two before the real dates that you're thinking about, but that's probably just makes it a slightly less accurate estimate... https://www.gov.uk/penalties-an-overview-for-agents-and-advisers and chasing up the links in it might be useful, though bear in mind the fact that it's really aimed at tax advisers, not individual taxpayers. I can also suggest a couple of tactics that might be useful: if you sell shares and buy them back in the following 30 days, the capital gain or loss on them is calculated as the price you sell them for minus the price you buy them back for (to keep things simple, buy back exactly the same number of shares as you sold, otherwise you get into apportionment calculations...), and the original purchase price stays around to be used when you eventually sell the shares. That capital gain or loss is likely to be fairly small and so not to perturb your CGT calculations all that much. That effectively gives you an extra 30 days to come up with the cash needed to pay the tax bill - and you can repeat it with another share if necessary. E.g. if you need £5,000 to pay the tax bill, you might do something like (ignoring trading costs on the assumption that they can come out of dividends or other spare cash): 20/01/2015: Sell 2000 AAA shares at 250p to raise £5,000 25/01/2015: Withdraw the £5,000 and use it to pay the tax bill 15/02/2015: Sell 1000 BBB shares at 520p to raise £5,200 16/02/2015: Buy 2000 AAA shares at 260p, costing £5,200 10/03/2015: Sell 700 CCC shares at 700p to raise £4,900 11/03/2015: Buy 1000 BBB shares at 480p, costing £4,800 06/04/2015: Sell 2000 AAA shares at 270p to raise £5,400 07/04/2015: Buy 700 CCC shares at 720p, costing £5,040 If the 2000 AAA shares were originally bought for say 100p each, just selling them on 20/01/2015 as above and doing none of the rest of the above will give you an extra capital gain of £5,000-£2,000 = £3,000 in the 2014/2015 tax year. But by doing all of the above, the '30-day rule' causes: * the 20/01/2015 sale to be matched to the 16/02/2015 buy, realising a loss of £5,000 - £5,200 = -£200 in the 2014/2015 tax year; * the 15/02/2015 sale to be matched to the 11/03/2015 buy, realising a gain of £5,200 - £4,800 = £400 in the 2014/2015 tax year; * the 10/03/2015 sale to be matched to the 07/04/2015 buy, realising a loss of £4,900 - £5,040 = -£140 in the 2014/2015 tax year; * the 06/04/2015 sale to be matched to the original buy, realising a gain of £5,400 - £2,000 = £3,400 in the 2015/2016 tax year. So the net result of that particular set of numbers is the tax bill paid on time, at the cost of an extra £60 of net gains in the 2014/2015 tax year and some trading costs, and the main capital gain realised in the 2015/2016 tax year. No guarantees you'll get those particular numbers, of course! Such techniques are mostly in the lap of the gods as far as the extra gains and losses realised in the current tax year are concerned - though they'll usually be small (take care to go for your more stable shares, avoiding ones expected to announce results, etc, while you're out of them), and if they do happen to become too large, an extra sale at a suitable loss or gain might be indicated. Alternatively, and much more simply, have you tried asking HSBC (or some other bank) whether they will offer you a more formal overdraft facility? Gengulphus
gengulphus
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