Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[david77] 01/2/2016 08:31

1: No

2: Use either of the free CGT calculators listed at the top of the page to find your net position. Download SA108 from the HMRC website - that should answer most of your questions.

3: Don't know the right answer, but I would claim on my tax return and see what happens - and you are late for the last tax year.

[ryanwolves] 31/1/2016 22:24

Not sure if this thread is still functioning as no posts for some time.
Here goes with a few questions re. CGT losses on shares,
Never had a nett trading loss before,however,looking like i will have a significant loss for the 2015-16 tax year. Unsure on the rules re. claiming the losses:

1)Can CGT losses on shares be offset against income tax?

2)Made some gains in the tax year,but these are surpassed by the losses.
Do i offset the gains against my annual CGT allowance first and then reduce my losses by any remaining gain over the annual CGT allowance?
As an example
Total gains 20,000
Less Annual CGT allowance 11,000
Gain carried forward 9,000
Total losses (40,000)
Nett Loss for Year (31,000)


Or would it be as follows :
Total gains for year 20,000
Total losses for year (40,000)
Nett loss for year (20,000)

3)Had a couple of companies go under this tax year.
How many years after they went bust can i make a negligible value claim on my tax return for the loss?

Would really appreciate any help.

[garrymorrow] 15/9/2015 20:53

Thank you gentlemen for your informed and prompt responses.

[garrymorrow] 15/9/2015 20:51

Yes indeed bones.

Thanks for your help gentlemen.

[garrymorrow] 15/9/2015 20:49

Gengulphus

Excellent response. I will ask the taxman. Your correspondence has crystalized my thoughts and has helped me draft my ideas. My capital loss is embarrassing and well worth recovering.

Many thanks

Garry Morrow

[bones30] 15/9/2015 09:00

I did some research into this a few years ago and it was something to do with it being "chess depositary" or something, was what I was told (mumbo jumbo to me).

Not sure if that helps?

[gengulphus] 14/9/2015 20:43

I've replied in the other CGT thread, in .

Gengulphus

[gengulphus] 14/9/2015 20:41

According to the company website :

"Thor is listed on the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) in London and the Australian Stock Exchange (ASX)."

I'm fairly certain the Australian Stock Exchange has been a 'recognised stock exchange' for a very long time now. Being listed on a 'recognised stock exchange' is enough to make a company ISA-eligible, so I'm uncertain why you think they're not... If it's only because Selftrade told you that they weren't, I think there's a good chance that someone at Selftrade thought "AIM share - not eligible" and didn't enquire further using the correct criterion for ISA eligibility (which back in 2007-8 was simply being listed on a 'recognised stock exchange', so that whether a share was traded on AIM was actually irrelevant to the question apart from the fact that being traded on AIM often meant it wasn't listed anywhere else).

But I'm not certain about that, because searching the company's annual reports for "Australian Stock Exchange" reveals statements like:

"Thor Mining PLC shares are dual listed on the AIM market and the Australian Stock Exchange. On the ASX they are traded as CDI’s."

CDIs are depositary interests rather than shares, which may well have affected their ISA-eligibility back then. I'm afraid though that this is an area of the ISA rules that I don't know or understand.

However, AIM shares became ISA-eligible regardless of whether they are listed on a 'recognised stock exchange' in mid-2013, so from then on I'm fairly certain the THR shares were allowed in the ISA - and in particular, that by the time you sold them in January 2015 they were allowed...

So either the THR shares were actually ISA-eligible all along, in which case the loss is definitely not allowable (though you might have cause for complaint about Selftrade forcing your other holding out of their ISA), or they weren't originally eligible, were incorrectly not chucked out of the ISA, but became eligible while still in the ISA and were later sold. In that case, sorry, I don't know whether the loss is allowable or not. I do know that the question looks like a can of worms to me! - but untangling that can of worms goes beyond my knowledge...

So what can you do about it? Options include (but are not necessarily limited to):

* Settle for the loss not being allowable, chalking up to experience the "make sure the shares you buy in your ISA are ISA-eligible" lesson.

* Contact HMRC to see whether you can get straight answers out of them about (a) whether THR shares were ISA-eligible when you bought them, and (b) if not, what the correct treatment is of a loss made within an ISA when shares are mistakenly bought within the ISA while not ISA-eligible, but they become ISA-eligible before they are sold.

* Pay for professional tax advice about the situation.

Personally, I would probably go for the chalk-it-up-to-experience option unless the amounts involved were enough to pay for professional tax advice several times over.

Gengulphus

[david77] 14/9/2015 19:07

If HMRC insists of these being held in your dealing a/c, then the deals should appear in your list of deals for CGT - in my opinion but I'm not qualified to advise.

[garrymorrow] 14/9/2015 12:58

I had a holding of 323k THR ordinary shares of 0.3p each. I sold all of them in January 2015.

They were bought in an ISA during 2007-08. HMRC did not allow these shares in an Isa and they should have been transferred to my dealing a/c, (as indeed happened to my Selftrade THR shares held with Selftrade). Is my capital loss relevant in my 2014/15 CGT calculations?

I think the answer is that the loss is allowable. Has anyone had this problem and/or can anyone advise.

TIA

Garry

[garrymorrow] 14/9/2015 12:26

I had a holding of 323k THR ordinary shares of 0.3p each. I sold all of them in January 2015.

They were bought in an ISA during 2007-08. HMRC did not allow these shares in an Isa and they should have been transferred to my dealing a/c, (as indeed happened to my Selftrade THR shares held with Selftrade). Is my capital loss relevant in my 2014/15 CGT calculations?

I think the answer is that the loss is allowable. Has anyone had this problem and/or can anyone advise.

TIA

Garry

[gengulphus] 03/8/2015 09:21

Agree, same day trades should be calculated first. Then 30 day trades rule second.

Just to be entirely clear, it's:

First, apply the same-day rules across the board to all dates.

Second, process the remaining transactions in date order (which fully determines their order, as there will be at most one transaction left per day after the same-day rules have been applied).

When processing a disposal in this second stage, you have to match it to an acquisition (and possibly to other acquisitions afterwards, if the first match requires the disposal to be apportioned). The 30-day rule is the highest-priority rule for determining which acquisition it is matched to.

My point is that the "first" and "second" in what you said can potentially cause a bit of confusion by suggesting that they're both about the order in which you process transactions, when in fact that order is determined by the same-day rules (first) and the date-order rule (second). The 30-day rule only affects how you deal with transactions when that order says they come up for processing.

Gengulphus

[sleveen] 02/8/2015 11:12

Thank you, David.


Agree, same day trades should be calculated first. Then 30 day trades rule second.

[david77] 01/8/2015 17:26

I translated the data to that for www.CGTcalculator.com using option 5 on www.stonebanks.co.uk

CGTcalculator says there were 6 sales. I think that we are supposed to combine same day deals - my prog reports 4 sales after combining same day sales. Otherwise, the two progs now give the same results.

[david77] 01/8/2015 13:18

I've put back for option 2.

Same day deals are done first - and then the rest of the deals. The latest mod was to put everythiing in chronological order but clearly doesn't calculate your figures correctly.

[david77] 01/8/2015 11:17

seems to give the right answer

and you finish up with 75000

The latest and you finish up with 35000

I'll try to see where the latest version has gone wrong.

[harrogate] 17/7/2015 12:34

That all makes sense - many thanks for your help

[gengulphus] 17/7/2015 11:11

harrogate,

You're presumably talking about submission on paper (rather than online) using form SA108, the Capital Gains Summary supplementary pages? ( )

First, note that the instructions for those pages ( ) say that you must accompany them with your CGT computations for the year. That's key to answering your questions, I think:

As regards the negligible value claim, what that claim allows you to do is compute a gain or loss (almost certainly a loss) on the holding, as though you had disposed of it for the negligible value, when normally you would only be allowed to compute a gain or loss on the holding when you had actually disposed of it. So you deal with it by:

* making the negligible value claim - this could be done in box 37, but for space reasons I would probably do it on a separate sheet of paper in my computations and write "See negligible value claim included in computations" in box 37;

* including the resulting gain/loss computation in your accompanying computations (probably with some sort of "See accompanying negligible value claim" note against it);

* adding the result of that computation to those of all the other gain/loss computations when preparing the totals to enter into form SA108. I think the direct results of the negligible value claim compared with not making the claim are that box 6 is increased by the resulting loss, box 18 is increased by 1, box 19 is increased by the negligible value (probably zero), and box 22 has "NVC" put into it, or "MUL" if there is also another claim that affects the gains or losses on listed shares (e.g. the EIS claim, which might be deferring a gain on a listed share). That's assuming that the negligible value claim is on a listed share - change the last three box numbers from 18, 19 and 22 to 24, 25 and 28 if it's unlisted - and in either case there may be consequential changes to other boxes: for instance, if you're using losses brought forward from earlier years, the increase in the figure in box 6 will cause you to need to use fewer of those brought-forward losses, affecting the figure in box 7. And I should add that it's your responsibility to make certain every figure is correct - I've tried to identify the main boxes affected for this post, but there's a limit to how much time I'm willing to give to such things and I certainly don't guarantee to have identified everything!

With regard to the EIS claim, I think (but am not certain - I haven't done one for a very long time myself) that an appropriate procedure is again based on the computations: include a computation of the gain to be deferred in the computations, ending it with something like "Less gain deferred by accompanying EIS claim: £N" and the result of subtracting the deferred gain, and use that result in preparing the totals for form SA108. That assumes only one gain is being deferred by the EIS claim: if more than one, then use the EIS claim form to identify how it's split up if it provides boxes for that purpose (as I said, I haven't done one for a very long time and so am not familiar with the forms), or otherwise use a separate sheet of paper in the computations to do so. And again, I would put a brief note along the lines of "See accompanying EIS claim, and EIS deferral in the accompanying computations" in box 37.

Finally, as regards the CGT computations themselves, there's no prescribed form for them. does have a "Computation Working Sheet (for straightforward calculations)" on page CGN 6, but I rather doubt that these computations will really count as straightforward enough! So you'll probably want to provide them in your own format - though the working sheet is still useful as a guide to what sort of information they're looking for in the computations.

Gengulphus

[harrogate] 17/7/2015 09:46

Hi. I have a question on how to present things on the tax return CGT pages.

For 2014/15 I have:

share sales that have produced gains
share sales that have produced losses
an EIS investment that I want to claim CGT deferral for
a claim for negligible value ( NVC)

I know what the final outcome is but not sure where to put everything on the pages

Does for example the NVC get netted off the gains I show in box 21 ? By increasing the cost I show in box 20?

Do I just note that I have an EIS claim in box 37, enclose the form I have and not show the actual number anywhere on the CG pages

Would really appreciate some clarification - thanks very much

[coolen] 15/7/2015 22:20

Any views on the increased share stake by CGT announced today ?

[m_k_hubbert] 10/7/2015 14:13

bluemango, this link to analysis by HL on this subject should further assist: hxxp://www.hl.co.uk/news/articles/budget-2015-changes-to-dividend-tax-explained

[bluemango] 10/7/2015 13:03

Many thanks for your speedy responses. Certainly hope #6900 is a true reflection of how this will be calculated, thank you. No doubt HMRC will clarify in due course.

[m_k_hubbert] 10/7/2015 12:41

My understanding is that the 7.5% dividend tax applies to 'basic rate taxpayers'. Those earning (from work, pensions, savings interest etc.) less than the personal allowance namely £11k in 2016/17 are 'non taxpayers' in which case the unused part of an investor's personal allowance is added to the £5k dividend allowance which applies to everyone. On this basis an investor with a sizeable portfolio producing up to £16k pa in dividends but with no other source of income would not incur the 7.5% dividend tax charge.

There are further apparent 'quirks' with the new dividend tax regime which result in higher rate and additional rate taxpayers with quite substantial portfolios actually being better off as a result of Wednesday's dividend tax changes; for example a higher rate taxpayer gains from the new £5k allowance up to the point where their portfolio exceeds £541.7k assuming a 4% average dividend yield. More details on the RIO thread which I won't reproduce here as topic is not directly related to CGT. I should state that I'm not a qualified tax adviser.