Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[gengulphus] 14/9/2015 19:41

According to the company website :

"Thor is listed on the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) in London and the Australian Stock Exchange (ASX)."

I'm fairly certain the Australian Stock Exchange has been a 'recognised stock exchange' for a very long time now. Being listed on a 'recognised stock exchange' is enough to make a company ISA-eligible, so I'm uncertain why you think they're not... If it's only because Selftrade told you that they weren't, I think there's a good chance that someone at Selftrade thought "AIM share - not eligible" and didn't enquire further using the correct criterion for ISA eligibility (which back in 2007-8 was simply being listed on a 'recognised stock exchange', so that whether a share was traded on AIM was actually irrelevant to the question apart from the fact that being traded on AIM often meant it wasn't listed anywhere else).

But I'm not certain about that, because searching the company's annual reports for "Australian Stock Exchange" reveals statements like:

"Thor Mining PLC shares are dual listed on the AIM market and the Australian Stock Exchange. On the ASX they are traded as CDI’s."

CDIs are depositary interests rather than shares, which may well have affected their ISA-eligibility back then. I'm afraid though that this is an area of the ISA rules that I don't know or understand.

However, AIM shares became ISA-eligible regardless of whether they are listed on a 'recognised stock exchange' in mid-2013, so from then on I'm fairly certain the THR shares were allowed in the ISA - and in particular, that by the time you sold them in January 2015 they were allowed...

So either the THR shares were actually ISA-eligible all along, in which case the loss is definitely not allowable (though you might have cause for complaint about Selftrade forcing your other holding out of their ISA), or they weren't originally eligible, were incorrectly not chucked out of the ISA, but became eligible while still in the ISA and were later sold. In that case, sorry, I don't know whether the loss is allowable or not. I do know that the question looks like a can of worms to me! - but untangling that can of worms goes beyond my knowledge...

So what can you do about it? Options include (but are not necessarily limited to):

* Settle for the loss not being allowable, chalking up to experience the "make sure the shares you buy in your ISA are ISA-eligible" lesson.

* Contact HMRC to see whether you can get straight answers out of them about (a) whether THR shares were ISA-eligible when you bought them, and (b) if not, what the correct treatment is of a loss made within an ISA when shares are mistakenly bought within the ISA while not ISA-eligible, but they become ISA-eligible before they are sold.

* Pay for professional tax advice about the situation.

Personally, I would probably go for the chalk-it-up-to-experience option unless the amounts involved were enough to pay for professional tax advice several times over.

Gengulphus

[david77] 14/9/2015 18:07

If HMRC insists of these being held in your dealing a/c, then the deals should appear in your list of deals for CGT - in my opinion but I'm not qualified to advise.

[garrymorrow] 14/9/2015 11:58

I had a holding of 323k THR ordinary shares of 0.3p each. I sold all of them in January 2015.

They were bought in an ISA during 2007-08. HMRC did not allow these shares in an Isa and they should have been transferred to my dealing a/c, (as indeed happened to my Selftrade THR shares held with Selftrade). Is my capital loss relevant in my 2014/15 CGT calculations?

I think the answer is that the loss is allowable. Has anyone had this problem and/or can anyone advise.

TIA

Garry

[garrymorrow] 14/9/2015 11:26

I had a holding of 323k THR ordinary shares of 0.3p each. I sold all of them in January 2015.

They were bought in an ISA during 2007-08. HMRC did not allow these shares in an Isa and they should have been transferred to my dealing a/c, (as indeed happened to my Selftrade THR shares held with Selftrade). Is my capital loss relevant in my 2014/15 CGT calculations?

I think the answer is that the loss is allowable. Has anyone had this problem and/or can anyone advise.

TIA

Garry

[gengulphus] 03/8/2015 08:21

Agree, same day trades should be calculated first. Then 30 day trades rule second.

Just to be entirely clear, it's:

First, apply the same-day rules across the board to all dates.

Second, process the remaining transactions in date order (which fully determines their order, as there will be at most one transaction left per day after the same-day rules have been applied).

When processing a disposal in this second stage, you have to match it to an acquisition (and possibly to other acquisitions afterwards, if the first match requires the disposal to be apportioned). The 30-day rule is the highest-priority rule for determining which acquisition it is matched to.

My point is that the "first" and "second" in what you said can potentially cause a bit of confusion by suggesting that they're both about the order in which you process transactions, when in fact that order is determined by the same-day rules (first) and the date-order rule (second). The 30-day rule only affects how you deal with transactions when that order says they come up for processing.

Gengulphus

[sleveen] 02/8/2015 10:12

Thank you, David.


Agree, same day trades should be calculated first. Then 30 day trades rule second.

[david77] 01/8/2015 16:26

I translated the data to that for www.CGTcalculator.com using option 5 on www.stonebanks.co.uk

CGTcalculator says there were 6 sales. I think that we are supposed to combine same day deals - my prog reports 4 sales after combining same day sales. Otherwise, the two progs now give the same results.

[david77] 01/8/2015 12:18

I've put back for option 2.

Same day deals are done first - and then the rest of the deals. The latest mod was to put everythiing in chronological order but clearly doesn't calculate your figures correctly.

[david77] 01/8/2015 10:17

seems to give the right answer

and you finish up with 75000

The latest and you finish up with 35000

I'll try to see where the latest version has gone wrong.

[harrogate] 17/7/2015 11:34

That all makes sense - many thanks for your help

[gengulphus] 17/7/2015 10:11

harrogate,

You're presumably talking about submission on paper (rather than online) using form SA108, the Capital Gains Summary supplementary pages? ( )

First, note that the instructions for those pages ( ) say that you must accompany them with your CGT computations for the year. That's key to answering your questions, I think:

As regards the negligible value claim, what that claim allows you to do is compute a gain or loss (almost certainly a loss) on the holding, as though you had disposed of it for the negligible value, when normally you would only be allowed to compute a gain or loss on the holding when you had actually disposed of it. So you deal with it by:

* making the negligible value claim - this could be done in box 37, but for space reasons I would probably do it on a separate sheet of paper in my computations and write "See negligible value claim included in computations" in box 37;

* including the resulting gain/loss computation in your accompanying computations (probably with some sort of "See accompanying negligible value claim" note against it);

* adding the result of that computation to those of all the other gain/loss computations when preparing the totals to enter into form SA108. I think the direct results of the negligible value claim compared with not making the claim are that box 6 is increased by the resulting loss, box 18 is increased by 1, box 19 is increased by the negligible value (probably zero), and box 22 has "NVC" put into it, or "MUL" if there is also another claim that affects the gains or losses on listed shares (e.g. the EIS claim, which might be deferring a gain on a listed share). That's assuming that the negligible value claim is on a listed share - change the last three box numbers from 18, 19 and 22 to 24, 25 and 28 if it's unlisted - and in either case there may be consequential changes to other boxes: for instance, if you're using losses brought forward from earlier years, the increase in the figure in box 6 will cause you to need to use fewer of those brought-forward losses, affecting the figure in box 7. And I should add that it's your responsibility to make certain every figure is correct - I've tried to identify the main boxes affected for this post, but there's a limit to how much time I'm willing to give to such things and I certainly don't guarantee to have identified everything!

With regard to the EIS claim, I think (but am not certain - I haven't done one for a very long time myself) that an appropriate procedure is again based on the computations: include a computation of the gain to be deferred in the computations, ending it with something like "Less gain deferred by accompanying EIS claim: £N" and the result of subtracting the deferred gain, and use that result in preparing the totals for form SA108. That assumes only one gain is being deferred by the EIS claim: if more than one, then use the EIS claim form to identify how it's split up if it provides boxes for that purpose (as I said, I haven't done one for a very long time and so am not familiar with the forms), or otherwise use a separate sheet of paper in the computations to do so. And again, I would put a brief note along the lines of "See accompanying EIS claim, and EIS deferral in the accompanying computations" in box 37.

Finally, as regards the CGT computations themselves, there's no prescribed form for them. does have a "Computation Working Sheet (for straightforward calculations)" on page CGN 6, but I rather doubt that these computations will really count as straightforward enough! So you'll probably want to provide them in your own format - though the working sheet is still useful as a guide to what sort of information they're looking for in the computations.

Gengulphus

[harrogate] 17/7/2015 08:46

Hi. I have a question on how to present things on the tax return CGT pages.

For 2014/15 I have:

share sales that have produced gains
share sales that have produced losses
an EIS investment that I want to claim CGT deferral for
a claim for negligible value ( NVC)

I know what the final outcome is but not sure where to put everything on the pages

Does for example the NVC get netted off the gains I show in box 21 ? By increasing the cost I show in box 20?

Do I just note that I have an EIS claim in box 37, enclose the form I have and not show the actual number anywhere on the CG pages

Would really appreciate some clarification - thanks very much

[coolen] 15/7/2015 21:20

Any views on the increased share stake by CGT announced today ?

[m_k_hubbert] 10/7/2015 13:13

bluemango, this link to analysis by HL on this subject should further assist: hxxp://www.hl.co.uk/news/articles/budget-2015-changes-to-dividend-tax-explained

[bluemango] 10/7/2015 12:03

Many thanks for your speedy responses. Certainly hope #6900 is a true reflection of how this will be calculated, thank you. No doubt HMRC will clarify in due course.

[m_k_hubbert] 10/7/2015 11:41

My understanding is that the 7.5% dividend tax applies to 'basic rate taxpayers'. Those earning (from work, pensions, savings interest etc.) less than the personal allowance namely £11k in 2016/17 are 'non taxpayers' in which case the unused part of an investor's personal allowance is added to the £5k dividend allowance which applies to everyone. On this basis an investor with a sizeable portfolio producing up to £16k pa in dividends but with no other source of income would not incur the 7.5% dividend tax charge.

There are further apparent 'quirks' with the new dividend tax regime which result in higher rate and additional rate taxpayers with quite substantial portfolios actually being better off as a result of Wednesday's dividend tax changes; for example a higher rate taxpayer gains from the new £5k allowance up to the point where their portfolio exceeds £541.7k assuming a 4% average dividend yield. More details on the RIO thread which I won't reproduce here as topic is not directly related to CGT. I should state that I'm not a qualified tax adviser.

[pedr01] 10/7/2015 09:14

I thought it was to catch people who took dividends rather that pay themselves an income, so the punitive interpretation looks more likely. Unfortunately there are some people who will be caught in the crossfire. Just my view.

[bluemango] 10/7/2015 08:02

Although not a CGT question, does anyone here have a view on the new dividend tax and whether, if you receive the majority of your income in dividends, the new £5000 allowance is in addition to the personal allowance? I.e. you could in theory receive £16,000 dividend income tax free? (p.a. 11,000 plus dividend allowance 5000). A post budget article by Citywire seemed to think this was the case but some contributers to TMF weren't so sure.



"Another point to consider is that dividend income can also be covered by the personal allowance, ie, the amount of income you are can earn before being taxed. That is set to rise to £11,000 next year, so someone who received the entirety of their income in dividends could receive up to £16,000 of this tax-free."

Personally I'd be surprised if the allowances were added in this way. However it seems particularly punitive for it to kick in at £5000 (regardless of your personal allowance) if dividends are your main income source.

[m_k_hubbert] 13/6/2015 22:16

Re Vodafone, a relative disposed of her holdings in both VOD and VZC last tax year and I've done all the CGT calculations using an Excel spreadsheet. I've been attempting to check my calculations via CGTCalculator.com and am running into problems re the VOD/VZC deal (but the program works fine to check her other share disposals).
Basically the restructuring (R) option does not appear to readily handle the allocation of (approx.) 63.97% / 36.03% VOD/VZC post deal; furthermore given that the 'C Shares' (Income) option was selected I can't readily figure out a way to 'trick' the program into increasing her acquisition costs in accordance with the detailed process outlined on Vodafone's website. I can, of course, simply show the acquisition cost of the new VOD shares in a single transaction based on her pre-deal Section 104 holding cost x 0.6397 plus the allowable extra cost as result of selecting the 'C' option but the number of buying transactions will thus be much reduced (although the CGT calculations should be unaffected).
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has encountered this issue and whether, like me, they decided that the best way to proceed was to use CGTCalculator for everything except VOD and handle the latter manually. I've not yet tried Stonebanks for last tax year but have looked at its documentation and concluded that it probably can't readily cope with the complexity of VOD/VZC either. Thanks in anticipation.

[sos100] 11/6/2015 08:52

Thanks mate.

again appreciate your time.

[gengulphus] 11/6/2015 08:26

not trying to confuse CGT with ISA but if i was to make more than the cgt amount in a ISA and i decide to move all or part of the proceeds back into my bank account is there still any potential tax liability?

so the gains come out of the ISA ,is it still classed as outside of cgt or any other potential tax liabilites?

No to CGT. CGT taxes gains on the basis of when and where they were realised, not in general what you do with them subsequently (*). The gains concerned were realised in the ISA before you withdrew the proceeds and are not subject to CGT because of that: the fact that you subsequently withdrew the proceeds from the ISA doesn't change that.

As regards other UK taxes, I'm not aware of any circumstances in which withdrawing money from an ISA directly causes a tax bill to appear ("directly" because if e.g. you put the withdrawn money in an investment that pays you income, that income will of course be taxable - but the direct cause of that taxable income is buying the investment, while withdrawing the money from the ISA is only an indirect cause, enabling you to buy the investment). Note that I am not aware of every nook and cranny of the UK tax system! - it's conceivable that there are obscure circumstances in which withdrawing money from an ISA would directly cause a tax bill, all I can say is that I'm not aware of any such circumstances.

To complete this answer, if by any chance you're tax-resident abroad, all bets are off - both as regards my knowledge of foreign tax systems (I know almost nothing about them beyond that I personally strongly prefer to avoid them) and as regards the ISA protecting you against any of their taxes (so far as I am aware, ISAs only protect you against UK taxation).

(*) An exception that I believe still exists is reinvestment of the gains in EIS companies, which defers the taxation by CGT of the original gains. But that's pretty much the opposite of what you're envisaging - it's causing a tax bill that would have been payable not to be payable (yet) rather than creating a new tax bill. And if the original gains arose in an ISA, the CGT tax deferral will look around and say "What capital gains? I don't see any capital gains." - as I said, capital gains (and losses) in an ISA are completely invisible to CGT.

sorry if it's a silly question but a couple people have suggested to me that once the money is actually withdrawn its subject to tax so I'm confused,maybe you can set me straight as to if there's any tax liabilities if your putting the money (profits) into your bank account surely that defeats the purpose of having a ISA account.

What they're telling you is that interest earned on that non-ISA bank account will be subject to Income Tax just like any other interest earned on non-ISA bank accounts. Similarly, if you were to invest it in shares, dividends paid by those shares would be subject to Income Tax and capital gains/losses realised when you sell them would be subject to CGT as normal for shares held outside an ISA.

E.g. if you invested £15k in an ISA last tax year, bought some shares with it and have just sold them for £20k, that £5k gain is exempt from CGT. If you now withdraw the £20k from the ISA, use it to buy some other shares, and end up selling those shares for £30k next year, that new £10k gain realised outside an ISA will be subject to CGT - but the original £5k gain remains just as exempt from CGT as it originally was.

Of course, normally it would be better not to withdraw the money from the ISA and instead reinvest it inside the ISA - that way, the extra £10k gain will also be exempt from CGT. However, that's not always possible, because not all shares are allowed investments in an ISA - e.g. if you want to buy shares in a private company a mate is setting up and has offered you a stake in, you can only do that outside an ISA.

Be careful though that there are two cases where investments aren't 'allowed' in an ISA. One is where the tax rules say they're not allowed: those investments simply cannot legitimately be bought in an ISA. The other is where the ISA provider doesn't support that type of investment - for example, an ISA provider might support investments in unit trusts but not in shares: in that case, the solution is to transfer the ISA to a provider who does support the type of investment you want. (And note that you need to do the transfer properly: don't try to do it by withdrawing everything from provider A and then trying to hand it all over to provider B. Instead, you've got to ask the two providers to do the transfer and leave them to actually move everything across.)

Gengulphus

[sos100] 10/6/2015 18:34

sorry Gengulphus- it was me that sent you the message.I was not aware of your preference for posting on the thread.Apologize

not trying to confuse CGT with ISA but if i was to make more than the cgt amount in a ISA and i decide to move all or part of the proceeds back into my bank account is there still any potential tax liability?

so the gains come out of the ISA ,is it still classed as outside of cgt or any other potential tax liabilites?

sorry if it's a silly question but a couple people have suggested to me that once the money is actually withdrawn its subject to tax so I'm confused,maybe you can set me straight as to if there's any tax liabilities if your putting the money (profits) into your bank account surely that defeats the purpose of having a ISA account.

Addressing this question to anyone who can help, Tia.

Ps btw really helpful and great thread, think we all appreciate the time both you and David spend.

[gengulphus] 10/6/2015 12:24

To the person who contacted me by ADVFN "private message": please use these bulletin boards instead of such messages to ask me about CGT. Sorry, but I'm simply not willing to do such stuff privately, partly because only one person benefits that way rather than potentially every reader of the board, partly because if I make a mistake, there's a better chance that someone will catch and correct it. (I'm posting this reply to both CGT boards, by the way, as I don't know which board they came from. And I'm deliberately not identifying the person concerned - I see no reason to 'name and shame' someone about ignoring a strong preference they probably didn't know I have!)

The answer to your question is basically that everything that happens inside an ISA is completely invisible to CGT. List all your trades outside the ISA (I'm assuming you don't have shares in any other tax shelters, such as SIPPs - if you do, take "outside the ISA" to mean "outside the ISA or any other tax shelter") and do your CGT calculations on them; don't even bother listing the trades inside the ISA. In particular, if you have shares in the same company both inside and outside the ISA, only list and perform calculations on the shares outside the ISA - ignore the ones inside it.

I say "basically" above because there are a few awkward cases:

* It is possible to transfer shares out of an ISA. If you do that, your ISA manager is supposed to tell you the value of the shares on the date of the transfer: you then treat them for CGT purposes as though you bought them at that value on the date of the transfer. (If your ISA manager doesn't tell you that information, ask them!)

* In rare circumstances, to do with shares obtained from some types of employee share scheme, it is possible to transfer shares into an ISA. I am not certain just what the CGT treatment is in that case - so if it applies, ask the scheme manager.

* There is also the recent change that someone whose spouse or civil partner dies gets an additional ISA allowance equal to the value of their ISAs on death. I've seen indications that in some circumstances, it's acceptable for the holdings in the deceased's ISAs to be transferred directly into ISAs belonging to their partner. Technically, that probably involves a transfer of the holdings from outside an ISA to inside one, as the general rule is that ISAs cease to be ISAs on the date of death... I'm afraid I don't know the CGT treatment in that case either - a question to ask when going through the admin of getting the extra ISA allowance, I suspect.

* Otherwise, all supposed 'transfers' into ISAs are not in fact transfers at all, but 'bed and ISA' packages of three transactions: a sale of the holding outside the ISA, a cash subscription to the ISA, and a repurchase of the holding inside the ISA (probably slightly reduced by the trading costs). Dealing with their CGT is simply a matter of applying the general rule: pay attention to the sale outside the ISA, ignore the repurchase inside the ISA (and ignore the cash ISA subscription - such subscriptions never have any CGT consequences).

Gengulphus

[gengulphus] 10/6/2015 12:24

To the person who contacted me by ADVFN "private message": please use these bulletin boards instead of such messages to ask me about CGT. Sorry, but I'm simply not willing to do such stuff privately, partly because only one person benefits that way rather than potentially every reader of the board, partly because if I make a mistake, there's a better chance that someone will catch and correct it. (I'm posting this reply to both CGT boards, by the way, as I don't know which board they came from. And I'm deliberately not identifying the person concerned - I see no reason to 'name and shame' someone about ignoring a strong preference they probably didn't know I have!)

The answer to your question is basically that everything that happens inside an ISA is completely invisible to CGT. List all your trades outside the ISA (I'm assuming you don't have shares in any other tax shelters, such as SIPPs - if you do, take "outside the ISA" to mean "outside the ISA or any other tax shelter") and do your CGT calculations on them; don't even bother listing the trades inside the ISA. In particular, if you have shares in the same company both inside and outside the ISA, only list and perform calculations on the shares outside the ISA - ignore the ones inside it.

I say "basically" above because there are a few awkward cases:

* It is possible to transfer shares out of an ISA. If you do that, your ISA manager is supposed to tell you the value of the shares on the date of the transfer: you then treat them for CGT purposes as though you bought them at that value on the date of the transfer. (If your ISA manager doesn't tell you that information, ask them!)

* In rare circumstances, to do with shares obtained from some types of employee share scheme, it is possible to transfer shares into an ISA. I am not certain just what the CGT treatment is in that case - so if it applies, ask the scheme manager.

* There is also the recent change that someone whose spouse or civil partner dies gets an additional ISA allowance equal to the value of their ISAs on death. I've seen indications that in some circumstances, it's acceptable for the holdings in the deceased's ISAs to be transferred directly into ISAs belonging to their partner. Technically, that probably involves a transfer of the holdings from outside an ISA to inside one, as the general rule is that ISAs cease to be ISAs on the date of death... I'm afraid I don't know the CGT treatment in that case either - a question to ask when going through the admin of getting the extra ISA allowance, I suspect.

* Otherwise, all supposed 'transfers' into ISAs are not in fact transfers at all, but 'bed and ISA' packages of three transactions: a sale of the holding outside the ISA, a cash subscription to the ISA, and a repurchase of the holding inside the ISA (probably slightly reduced by the trading costs). Dealing with their CGT is simply a matter of applying the general rule: pay attention to the sale outside the ISA, ignore the repurchase inside the ISA (and ignore the cash ISA subscription - such subscriptions never have any CGT consequences).

Gengulphus