Capital Gearing Share Chat (CGT)

Find Your Broker

Share Name	Share Symbol	Market	Type	Share ISIN	Share Description
Capital Gearing	LSE:CGT	London	Ordinary Share	GB0001738615	ORD 25P

	Price Change	% Change	Share Price	Bid Price	Offer Price	High Price	Low Price	Open Price	Shares Traded	Last Trade
	-10.00p	-0.24%	4,080.00p	4,080.00p	4,100.00p	4,080.00p	4,080.00p	4,080.00p	4,299	11:40:33

Industry Sector	Turnover (m)	Profit (m)	EPS - Basic	PE Ratio	Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments	2.9	2.0	37.0	110.2	294.68

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

Showing 8201 to 8220 of 8225 messages

Chat Pages: 329 328 327 326 325 324 323 322 321 320 319 318 Older

Date	Subject	Author	Discuss
22/1/2019 22:55	To the best of my knowledge there are no HMRC restrictions on the number trades in any given year. It may be possible that the provider may impose a limit but unlikly given they make their money from trade commission.	dcarn	Read Full Thread Reply
22/1/2019 21:40	Would you please offer an opinion on the following question: Having put ones maximum annual allowable amount into a Share dealing ISA is there any restrictions on the number of buy & sells one can carry out with that ISA during the financial year? I ask because prior to having a Share Dealing ISA I had to limit the value of my total sells to a max of 4 x the CGT amount for that year or fill out a SA108.	gbh2	Read Full Thread Reply
19/1/2019 11:21	finkwot, Incidentally, what counts as "enhancement costs" for a shareholding, or does that only apply to other types of asset? I think that if one takes up a rights issue, one's payment of the subscription counts as an "enhancement cost" (which looking at HMRC's CGT worksheet, I should probably more properly have called an "improvement cost"). I've never seen HMRC say explicitly that it is one, but they're quite clear that it doesn't count as an extra acquisition, which can be relevant for the 30-day rule: if you sell shares on e.g. May 1st and then subscribe to a May 15th rights issue, the new shares you get from subscribing to the rights don't get matched to the sale. Specifically, their helpsheet https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/share-reorganisations-company-takeovers-and-capital-gains-tax-hs285-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs285-share-reorganisations-company-takeovers-and-capital-gains-tax-2018 is quite explicit about the facts that rights issue are share reorganisations, that share reorganisations don't count as acquisitions, and that the same-day rules and 30-day rules don't apply to share reorganisations. It also says that one should add the amount subscribed to the cost of the original shares, and gives an example (example 4) showing this being done at the date of the rights issue (), not the date of the original purchase or anything like that (which almost certainly couldn't be made to make sense anyway in complex cases, given all the things that might have happened since the original purchase). Anyway, that treatment of a rights issue subscription seems to me to be entirely consistent with the general treatment of improvement costs, and subscribing to rights is actually technically a matter of improving them from being 'nil paid' to being 'fully paid'. So I'm quite happy to treat rights issue subscriptions as improvement costs to the shareholding - but I can't say that HMRC have said that that's the right classification of them, nor that they've said any other classification is the right one. I'm quite happy to declare to them that the resulting tax returns are "complete and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief" - but the words "and belief" are definitely an important aspect of that! () Though somewhat annoyingly, they're not clear about exactly which date it is. There are at least four different dates that it could be: the date the company becomes committed to the rights issue (which might either be the date it is announced or a later date when it ceases to be subject to shareholder approval and/or other conditions), the date the rights are split off from the shares (i.e. the shares go ex-rights and the rights come into existence), the date the shareholder actually commits to paying the subscription, and the date the rights issue closes. They're typically spread over at least a few weeks, and while the inapplicability of the same-day and 30-day rules makes the exact date much less likely to be important, it can still be so if it affects whether a share sale took place before or after the additions to the numbers of shares in and cost of the Section 104 pool. I think the answer is that it's the date the rights are split off from the shares - but that's only because on detailed consideration of a quite a few hypothetical situations, it's the date that produces the most sensible (IMHO) results, not because I've found anything HMRC have said officially about the answer. But I'm not confident about that answer, since producing sensible results is by no means an infallible guide to questions about tax rules. So what I do in practice is give that date in my CGT computations, but carefully avoid making sales on the range of dates around a rights issue where the answer would make a difference to the CGT computations. I.e. the worst I get wrong in the computations is a date that is not the date of any capital gain/loss, not the amounts or dates of any gains/losses. HMRC have never questioned me about any such dates, by the way, but I read very little into that, because the fact that CGT computations can be submitted in any format one feels appropriate very strongly suggests that they're only looked at by humans, not computers, and thus that they'll only be looked at at all if HMRC happens to pick one's tax return out for detailed examination by a human. There's definitely a nonzero chance of that happening, as HMRC pick some tax returns for detailed examination completely randomly - but their limited manpower means that it must be a pretty low chance. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply
15/1/2019 13:08	Gengulphus, thanks for the detailed response. I normally use CGTCalculator.com to work out my tax for share dealings (which handles this section 104 stuff for me) but this year my CFDs and share dealings have exceeded the CGT allowance. I think the easiest is to group all the CFD and Share dealings in date order and paste the block into CGTCalculator to do the workings out so l can actually fill in my tax form with all the details needed. Thankfully CFD interest could l guess be part of the commission as this eats into the capital gains per HMRC examples and CFD dividends add to the capital gains.	smurfy2001	Read Full Thread Reply
15/1/2019 12:20	You're probably right, and if I had thought of it before I started I might have done something more on those lines. I did go back to the beginning on one of the more complex calculations, to see how it would look, but errors kept creeping in and I gave up. We've provided all the data in its place (breakdown of acquisition costs at the point of acquisition), and the final data to match the boxes on the page for listing computations that didn't use the HMRC worksheet. We'll submit it as it is and see what they say. Incidentally, what counts as "enhancement costs" for a shareholding, or does that only apply to other types of asset?	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
15/1/2019 11:38	smurfy2001, Anyone know if CFDs are exempt from the bed and breakfast rule? CFDs are not something I have any real experience of, but the general principle about the share identification rules (which include the '30-day' or 'anti-bed-and-breakfasting' rule) is expressed in HMRC's Capital Gains manual, specifically in https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg51500 : "One feature of shares is that unless they are numbered, and most shares are not, all shares of the same class in the same company are identical. The problem this causes can be illustrated quite easily. In 2010 Mr A bought 1,000 shares in B PLC at a price of £2.50 per share. He bought a further 500 shares in 2005 at £3 per share. He has now spent £4,000 on 1,500 shares. In 2010 he sold 250 shares for £4 each. To work out the capital gain you need to know which shares the taxpayer sold and how much they cost. The issue does not just arise with shares but with any assets that are not distinguishable from each other or are dealt with as if they are. The share identification rules therefore also apply to such assets TCGA92/S104(1)(3)(ii). Se CG11820. The rules also even if in practice the separate assets are identifiable, say by their numbers, TCGA92/S104(1). This chapter deals with the special rules ..." (Rather more detail is available in the section of the manual introduced by that - see the pages linked to by https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg51500c - but unfortunately nothing specifically about CFDs that I've spotted. There is also a small amount in the manual about CFDs, in https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg56100 and https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg56101 , but it looks silent on the question of whether the share identification rules apply to them.) I'm not really certain what the third paragraph of that quote is meant to convey, but my best guess is that it's saying that if a particular type of asset is in general not individually identifiable, then it doesn't matter whether one can prove where it came from in a specific case. For instance, if in the example in the first paragraph, Mr A happened to have made the first purchase in his account with broker X and his second purchase in his account with a different broker Y, and he sold the shares from the broker X account (and had not made any transfers of the shares in or out of the broker X account over the period concerned), he can actually prove that the shares he sold came from the first purchase and not the second. But the rules don't care - they'll still treat the shares sold as coming from a Section 104 'pool' of 1500 shares bought for £4,000. Anyway, quite a long time ago I read somewhere that some CFD providers give their CFDs individual serial numbers and all transactions in them identify the specific CFDs traded by their serial numbers, while others just have some standard types and one just buys and sells however many one wants without identifying them specifically, as with shares. And that this determines whether the share identification rules apply to them. I'm afraid I can't point to where I read it, I have no real idea about how authoritative it was and even if it was an accurate answer, it was probably 10 or more years ago so could well be well out of date by now! But it does seem to be consistent with the HMRC material I've quoted above. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply
15/1/2019 10:32	finkwot, This is an observation rather than a question, though further observations are welcome. I'm quite aware that I'm stumbling my way through a thicket blindfold. On the worksheet for simple calculations they ask for gross disposal proceeds incidental disposal costs acquisition cost incidental costs of acquisition On my own workings for complex calculations I've provided all the data but in writing out the relevant figures for each disposal I've only provided the total acquisition cost without breaking it down. I've provided the breakdown of disposal into gross proceeds and costs. In simple cases it would be easy to provide all the figures, but in complex cases it's really not feasible. I'm assuming because I have provided all the data as it arises during the workings I'm ok doing it like this. I also think my position is borne out by the wording of the law at Http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/38/enacted I think you're probably right about it being unnecessary, but don't feel entirely certain because it's the sort of thing that might be in secondary legislation / regulations. Satisfying oneself that something is not in primary legislation is hard enough, doing the same for secondary legislation / regulations I give up on! So I basically include all the details I input into my spreadsheets in my submitted computations. That includes the breakdown of every specific transaction's final total into acquisition costs, enhancement costs, incidental costs and disposal proceeds (some of which will be zero for any particular transaction), as well as the final total itself - it's a bit more input work than the bare essentials (disposal proceeds and incidental costs for sales, final total for purchases, as you say), but (a) I like to be able to keep an eye on the incidental costs anyway, if only out of curiosity about how low I'm keeping them; (b) I've found the protection it gives against typos while inputting the data and other inadvertent errors very valuable. Basically, the spreadsheet includes a check that (final total) = (disposal proceeds) - (acquisition costs) - (enhancement costs) - (incidental costs) with the appropriate sign, and if it doesn't, conditional formatting highlights the mistake with an eye-catching red background. This alerts me to the mistake immediately, so I know which transaction is in error and I've still got its details in front of me, making it very little work to correct it. I haven't really found tracking that breakdown through the subsequent computations very difficult - I just add up, apportion, etc, each category separately, with a little bit of care taken in the spreadsheet formulae to make certain that nothing goes missing because of rounding effects (things like 1.5 + 1.5 = 3.0 rounding to 2 + 2 = 3 are a bit aggravating if they're allowed to get through...). That did require a bit of care originally to get the spreadsheet formulae exactly right, but once that was done, it just became a matter of "I need to do an apportionment, so use my standard apportionment formulae". The breakdown of incidental costs into those for the acquisition and those for the disposal can get blurred in the process - there's just one incidental costs column in my spreadsheet - but each original transaction does have its incidental costs declared, so it matches what HMRC's worksheet does in the simple cases... And just to be clear, this isn't intended as the answer to a question, nor as saying what I think the requirements are - just as observations about what I personally choose to do. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply
14/1/2019 16:22	Edit. I've removed this question about payments on account to HMRC as I've found relevant material here: Https://www.gov.uk/understand-self-assessment-bill/payments-on-account I ought to have checked online first, but I was a bit shocked at the demand. I'll come back if necessary.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
13/1/2019 23:38	Anyone know if CFDs are exempt from the bed and breakfast rule?	smurfy2001	Read Full Thread Reply
12/1/2019 18:43	This is an observation rather than a question, though further observations are welcome. I'm quite aware that I'm stumbling my way through a thicket blindfold. On the worksheet for simple calculations they ask for gross disposal proceeds incidental disposal costs acquisition cost incidental costs of acquisition On my own workings for complex calculations I've provided all the data but in writing out the relevant figures for each disposal I've only provided the total acquisition cost without breaking it down. I've provided the breakdown of disposal into gross proceeds and costs. In simple cases it would be easy to provide all the figures, but in complex cases it's really not feasible. I'm assuming because I have provided all the data as it arises during the workings I'm ok doing it like this. I also think my position is borne out by the wording of the law at Http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/38/enacted (1)Except as otherwise expressly provided, the sums allowable as a deduction from the consideration in the computation of the gain accruing to a person on the disposal of an asset shall be restricted to— (a)the amount or value of the consideration, in money or money’s worth, given by him or on his behalf wholly and exclusively for the acquisition of the asset, together with the incidental costs to him of the acquisition... (c)the incidental costs to him of making the disposal.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
12/1/2019 18:11	I got the answer from @HMRCcustomers on twitter. I hadn't thought of that, and there are limits to the questions you can ask in 280 characters, but they sent an email suggesting it as a way to ask questions and I managed to fit it in. Certainly less painful than ringing up, listening to recorded messages, being on hold for 20 minutes and getting someone who doesn't quite seem to understand what you're trying to ask.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
08/1/2019 16:40	Gengulphus Thank you very much for that. I think I have the BBY losses written out correctly, though I may come back when I double check everything at the end. EDIT - I've found the answer to this and added it at the bottom. Problem: I purchase say 100 shares in XYZ plc Sometime later I purchase 50 shares and sell 60 shares on the same day. The gain or loss on the sale is calculated in two parts - 50 shares correspond to my purchase of the same day, and 10 shares to my earlier purchase. I therefore have two figures for gains or losses, derived from one sale. HMRC ask me the number of disposals I have made. Is it one or two? - if one, do I add the two gains/losses together and declare them as one? Answer: Add the gains / losses together and declare them as one.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
07/1/2019 00:27	finkwot, Shares in BBY purchased in 2007 and 2008. Rights issue in 2009. Rights lapsed, payment received. Shares eventually sold in 2017. No other transactions. I was assuming I would deduct that payment from the original cost of acquisition to find the cost of acquisition to use for calculating CGT loss on the eventual sale in 2017. However I have now read this: ... The payment was in excess of £3,000 and in excess of 5% of the value, so it's not a 'small' amount. There's no mention of CGT in the notes I have for her 2010 tax return, but I'll assume that's because she was within the threshold. Does the fact that her receipt of this payment was technically treated as a part disposal of her shareholding in 2009 affect the cost of acquisition I must use today to calculate the loss on sale of the shares in 2017? Yes, the lapsed rights payment is treated as a capital distribution (https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg57856) and as it fails to qualify as 'small', it needs to be treated as a part disposal as described in the pages under https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg57800p, especially CG57825-6. (There might be exceptions, as the end of https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg57836 hints - but the wording of that page does suggest to me that the answer is likely to be "No"!) The difficulty is establishing the correct values to use for the apportionment of the base cost of the original shares between the ex-rights shares and the rights. Sometimes a company website include useful CGT-related information, possibly in a 'Shareholder information' or similarly-named section of an annual report, and you're in luck on this occasion: Balfour Beatty's 2009 annual report is available on its website, as https://www.balfourbeatty.com/media/29357/ar2009.pdf, there's a 'Shareholder information' section one page from its end, and that section includes the following information about the rights issue: Rights issue On 17 September 2009, the Company announced a fully underwritten 3 for 7 rights issue at a subscription price of 180p per new ordinary share, representing a discount of approximately 46.8% to the closing middle market price of 344p per ordinary share on 16 September 2009, after adjustment for the 2009 interim dividend, to substantially finance the acquisition of Parsons Brinckerhoff Inc. The rights issue and acquisition were approved by the holders of the Company’s ordinary shares at a general meeting on 7 October 2009 and the rights issue closed on 22 October 2009. The Company’s ordinary shares were quoted ex-rights by the London Stock Exchange on 8 October 2009 and their closing middle market price that day was 279.6p per share. The closing middle market price of an ordinary share immediately before the ex-rights date was 316p per share. Dealings in nil paid new ordinary shares commenced on 8 October 2009 and the closing middle market price of the nil paid new ordinary shares that day was 98.75p per share. The theoretical ex-rights price was 275.2p per ordinary share. The Company received valid acceptances in respect of 199,469,067 ordinary shares, representing approximately 97.06% of the total number of new ordinary shares offered to shareholders pursuant to the rights issue. In accordance with the arrangements set out in the rights issue prospectus, JPMorgan Cazenove Limited and RBS Hoare Govett Limited procured acquirers for the remaining 6,033,170 ordinary shares for which valid acceptances were not received, at a price of 287p per new ordinary share. 205,502,237 new ordinary shares were therefore issued, raising £352m after issue costs and expenses of £18m. Apportionment is done according to the closing prices on the first day of dealing after the rights issue (October 8 2009), so for a holding of say 10000 Balfour Beatty shares that produced 4285 rights (and a lost 5/7ths of a right): * Value of ex-rights shares = 10000 * 279.6p = £27,960.00. * Value of rights = 4285 * 98.75p = £4,231.44. * Combined value = £32,191.44. * The original acquisition cost is split accordingly, with a fraction £4,231.44/£32,191.44 going to the rights and £27,960.00/£32,191.44 going to the ex-rights shares. So if for instance the original acquisition cost was £50,000.00 (a price chart says it does look likely to have been appreciably higher in 2007 or 2008 than in 2009), £6,572.31 would go to the rights and £43,427.69 would be carried forward for the ex-rights shares. The lapsed-rights payment would be (per right) the 287p obtained for selling the corresponding shares, minus the 180p per right being raised by the company, minus the costs of the sale, so a bit under 107p per right. You'll presumably know how much that was from the number of rights and the payment received, but if say it was 106.4p per right, the 4285 rights would have produced a lapsed-rights payment of £4,559.24. That means that the gain calculation would have come out as £4,559.24 - £6,572.31 = -£2,013.07, i.e. a loss of £2,013.07. And the acquisition cost carried forward for the shares would be £43,427.69 rather than £50,000.00 - £4,559.24 = £45,440.76 as it would be under the 'small' capital distribution treatment. I.e. it would be lower by £2,013.07, resulting in any eventual gain being higher by that amount and CGT potentially higher by 20% of it, i.e. £402.61. (In general, when the 'small' capital distribution treatment is available, actually using it is always a similar trade-off between increases/decreases of realised capital gains/(losses) and equal-and-opposite decreases/increases of unrealised capital gains/(losses). You might not want the trade-off it offers you, e.g. because you might want to realise an extra capital loss because your net realised gains are over the CGT allowance. If you don't want it, you don't have to take it, i.e. the quote you've found is a bit over-prescriptive in the case when the capital distribution does count as 'small' - see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg57838 to confirm this. Not that it matters in this case, as 'small' capital distribution treatment isn't on offer here.) Anyway, given the likely fall in value of the BBY holding between purchase in 2007 and 2008 and the rights issue in 2009, it does seem likely to me that the treatment as a part disposal would have realised a loss. Which may help to explain why there is nothing about it in the notes would have about the 2010 tax return: if realised gains elsewhere were obviously below the CGT allowance, one might very naturally not even think of looking for realised losses - and realised gains were likely to be rare in the 2009/10 tax year, given what the market had been doing... That might well have been a mistake, because if one has more realised losses than realised gains in a tax year, one can carry the excess losses forward and use them in a future tax year. But if that mistake was made, it's too late to correct it now: there's a deadline beyond which realised losses cannot be claimed, which for the 2009/2010 tax year I think was 5 April 2014 (not entirely certain of that, because there was a rules change about loss-claiming deadlines around 2009/2010 - but I am certain that it was no later than 31 January 2016). They might have been claimed before the deadline and if they were, they would then be 'in the system' and either have been used against gains in excess of the CGT allowance or still be available as carried-forward losses, but unless that happened (check the tax returns!), they're lost with no hope of recovery. Equally, though, if in the 2009/2010 tax year realised capital gains were below the CGT allowance and realised capital losses were below realised capital gains, there would probably have been no reason at all to either mention CGT in the tax return or claim the losses. So I'm not saying a mistake was made, just that it might have been and if it was, it is now uncorrectable. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply
06/1/2019 17:35	I have a couple of cases where I simply have no record of the purchase price, and a few where I only have a note of the total cost of purchase, not broken down into cost of purchase and incidental costs. I'll get onto the brokers, but for certificated purchases in the 1980s, later dematerialised, with no records surviving? I have no expectation of being able to get that information. I'll have to ring HMRC and see what they say. Next problem: Shares in BBY purchased in 2007 and 2008. Rights issue in 2009. Rights lapsed, payment received. Shares eventually sold in 2017. No other transactions. I was assuming I would deduct that payment from the original cost of acquisition to find the cost of acquisition to use for calculating CGT loss on the eventual sale in 2017. However I have now read this: Rights that you give up or sell on You usually accept a rights offer by paying for the shares. But you may decide to sell your right to get new shares to someone else. Or turn down the offer and take cash instead. The cash you get is treated as a part disposal of your shareholding. There is no Capital Gains Tax to pay on the cash you get if both of the following apply: you get a ‘small’ amount of cash, usually less than £3,000 or an amount less than 5% of the value of your shares in the company - valued just before the rights issue the cash you get is less than the cost of your original shares Later, when you sell or dispose of your shares you must work out your Capital Gains Tax. Your allowable cost will be the cost of the original shares less the amount of cash you got. If the amount you get for the sale of rights is greater than the amounts shown above the sale is treated as a disposal. You’ll need to work out the Capital Gains Tax. The payment was in excess of £3,000 and in excess of 5% of the value, so it's not a 'small' amount. There's no mention of CGT in the notes I have for her 2010 tax return, but I'll assume that's because she was within the threshold. Does the fact that her receipt of this payment was technically treated as a part disposal of her shareholding in 2009 affect the cost of acquisition I must use today to calculate the loss on sale of the shares in 2017? I apologise if the answer is obvious. After most of a weekend struggling through the CGT manual my brain is a little numb, and I know that seemingly obvious answers aren't always right answers with HMRC.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
04/1/2019 22:23	Hi Gengulphus Thank you for coming back so quickly. To answer your question, some of them were in her husband's name (he left his entire estate to her, and the shares were sold after they passed from the estate into her name), and some were always in her name, but he managed them and she was only vaguely aware of their existence. For the former it's not too complicated because, as you say, any corporate actions before that date can be forgotten. The more complex ones are the holdings which were always in her name - some of them, for example, we don't have any record before they are transferred into Crest in 2002 (from where? and at what price were they acquired?). For others we have records going back as far as 1990. None of them were in joint names - sorry, I ought to have made that clearer. I'll read over your post again with care in the morning. Thanks again.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
04/1/2019 17:56	...and a third Can I presume that inheritance from a spouse does not count as a transfer of assets between connected people, and that the cost of acquisition is the market value on the day of death? If so, The market value is the price an asset might reasonably make on the open market on the date of its disposal. For shares and securities quoted on the Stock Exchange Daily Official List, the market value in all normal circumstances is the lower of: the figure one-quarter up from the lower of the 2 prices in the quotation for the relevant day the figure halfway between the highest and lowest prices of recorded bargains for that day What are "the 2 prices in the quotation" - opening and closing prices? The bank gave a valuation for probate which was simply the closing price for the day, coincidentally the high price. We can't rely on that, I suppose.	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
04/1/2019 16:51	Another small question I have a sale which resulted in a profit of just over £2. However when I input the numbers to HMRC's worksheet, everything is rounded and the result shows no profit or loss. As the total gains of all sales are substantial, I must complete the CGT declaration, but should I include or omit this particular sale?	finkwot	Read Full Thread Reply
18/12/2018 01:06	SarahBudd, Just to clarify then... if I bought shares in previous tax years I don't enter those figures in this tax return? Just the disposal figures as those were sold in this return? Acguiting figures therefore will be much lower than disposal ones.. No. You might well not enter any of the individual trade figures into the tax returns itself - just some summary figures. But if you have to enter stuff into the Capital Gains part of the tax return at all, you have to provide accompanying computations of the capital gains and losses you've realised. If you're submitting online (as I'd guess you are), you can do that either by entering them into the appropriate "Any other information" box, or by doing them in a PDF attachment. (I would recommend using a PDF attachment unless you've only got simple computations, and only a few of them, as a simple text entry box isn't very good for laying computations out clearly, and it's also vulnerable to typos and miscalculations. I use a spreadsheet to give me good layout and automatically-performed computations, and produce a PDF printout of it.) Those computations should calculate the gain or loss for each of your asset disposals (normally sales) during the tax year concerned. For each disposal, you should identify when the asset was acquired and what the allowable costs are for that acquisition, including the cost of the asset itself, the incidental costs of acquiring it and the costs of any subsequent improvements to it that are still reflected in it when you disposed of it. You then calculate the gain or loss as the disposal proceeds minus all the allowable costs, both those just calculated for the asset being sold and the incidental costs for the disposal. So if you bought some shares in the 2007/2008 tax year and sold them in the 2017/2018 tax year, for example, neither trade features in your CGT computations for any of the 2007/2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, 2011/2012, 2012/2013, 2013/2014, 2014/2015, 2015/2016 or 2016/2017 tax years, but then both appear in your computations for the 2017/2018 tax year. (So don't get rid of old financial records about any shares you still own!) So in essence, the figures for all of your share purchases do eventually get into your CGT computations - but it might take many years. And there is an exception to that, though one that's more important for your executors than for you yourself: if you never sell the shares but keep them until you die, they never get into your CGT computations at all: all gains and losses that are still unrealised when you die are wiped out as far as CGT is concerned. They will still be effectively taxed by Inheritance Tax, but that works from the probate value of the assets concerned (which is basically just their market value at the point of death) and doesn't dig back historically to find out what you paid for them. (As a bit of a detour from your actual issue, that's a distinct mercy for executors: working out what someone's assets and their values were at the time they died can be quite bad enough, especially for an executor who is grieving and not especially familiar with the deceased's finances. Having to try to dig back potentially decades into their financial history could make it far worse... That also means that it's generally a bad mistake for someone on their deathbed to try to "tidy things up for the executors" by selling assets shortly before they die: it's liable to make things worse for the executors, as they do generally have to deal with the deceased's tax returns for the last tax year or two of their lives, and to cost tax overall because it makes the assets concerned doubly-taxed by CGT followed by Inheritance Tax on the sale proceeds rather than just singly-taxed by Inheritance Tax...) One thing to warn you about: identifying the shares you sold is done by special rules, which have little to do with actually working out which purchase they actually came from. The basic reason for having those rules is that working out what purchase they came from is often impossible. If for example you have a single broker account and you bought 4000 shares at 100p each in 2008 and then later bought another 4000 shares at 200p each in 2013, then sold half the resulting holding of 8000 shares at 400p each in 2018, how can you tell whether the 4000 shares you sold were the ones you bought in 2008 (so that ignoring the relatively small incidental costs of the trades, your gain is 4000400p - 4000100p = £16k-£4k = £12k) or the ones you bought in 2013 (so the gain is similarly 4000400p - 4000200p = £16k-£8k = £8k) or some mixture? The answer is that you can't, nor can your broker, the company or anyone else - shares simply don't have serial numbers or anything else that allows shares of the same class in the same company to be distinguished from each other. To deal with that, the special rules for shares basically say to treat all shares of the same class in the same company that you own as a single 'pooled' asset: the purchase in 2008 gives you a 'pool' of 4000 shares bought for £4k (still ignoring the incidental costs), the purchase in 2013 adds a further 4000 shares bought for £8k to it to grow to a 'pool' of 8000 shares bought for £12k, and then the sale sells half of that 'pool' (4000 shares bought for £6k) and so realises a gain of 4000*400p - £6k = £16k-£6k = £10k, leaving you with the remaining half, a 'pool' of 4000 shares bought for £6k. That's only what they basically say, though: there are special same-day rules that apply to trades done on the same day as each other, and a special 30-day rule that applies when shares are sold, then the same type of share is bought in the following 30 days. And the special rules for shares changed markedly in April 2008 (and on some earlier dates before the turn of the century as well), which can matter even now because one might have some sales back then that one never did any CGT computations for at the time because they completely obviously weren't going to realise gains in excess of the CGT allowance - but which could matter now because they affect the allowable costs of the shares they left one with... Last but not least, I would recommend reading the help material for the capital gains part of the paper tax return in https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/690351/sa108-notes-2018.pdf even if you file online: it provides a rather more complete description of what's wanted than the online help system provides. You'll probably want that part of the paper tax return as well to see what it's describing - it's in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/690350/sa108-2018.pdf - and the various "Related forms and guidance" links in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-capital-gains-summary-sa108 are likely to be helpful for various special situations. HMRC's introductory material in https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax might also help, though I personally find that it leaves rather too many questions about details unanswered... In particular, the computation working sheet on page 9 (and repeated on pages 10-12) of the first of those links is a good guide to the basic form of a CGT computation and what information is wanted. Be warned though that when it says it's "for straightforward calculations", it means it - e.g. as warned about on page 1 of the same link, it doesn't really handle part disposals (e.g. selling some but not all of a shareholding), nor does it properly handle cases such as the example above where a shareholding was acquired in more than one purchase on different dates, nor is it good in many cases where takeovers, mergers, demergers, rights issues and other corporate actions are involved... Furthermore, it's ridiculously voluminous if one does more than a very small amount of trading: a moderately active trader could easily end up producing a tax return the size of a novel if they did one calculation per page as it does! So I'm only recommending it as a guide to what's wanted, not for actual use unless one only has a few, very straightforward computations to do. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply
17/12/2018 08:44	Thanks you. Just to clarify then... if I bought shares in previous tax years I don't enter those figures in this tax return? Just the disposal figures as those were sold in this return? Acguiting figures therefore will be much lower than disposal ones..	sarahbudd	Read Full Thread Reply
17/12/2018 08:11	SarahBudd, You generally only report on your 'realised' gains and losses. Realising a gain or loss generally only happens when you dispose of the shares (or other asset), usually by selling them - but there are other ways of disposing of an asset, such as giving it away or it ceasing to exist, and they also realise gains or losses. But if you still own the asset, generally you haven't realised the gain or loss, and you shouldn't report on it - that's an 'if and when' job that should only be done on a future disposal. So the answer to your question 2 is basically that no, you shouldn't report on shares you haven't yet sold. Your allowable costs for an asset are generally what you actually paid for it, plus 'improvement' costs, plus the 'incidental' costs of acquiring and disposing of it. For shares, yes, that's the basic price paid for them. I think answers your question 1, but I should probably expand on the answer a bit to avoid possible misunderstandings! 'Incidental' costs of acquiring and disposing of an asset are fees, taxes (other than the CGT being calculated itself!), etc, that are wholly and exclusively associated with the acquisition or disposal. For normal purchases and sales of shares, they include the broker's commission for each trade, stamp duty on the purchase, and potentially PTM levy on either or both of the trades (if they exceed £10k in value). They do not include such things as account fees that are charged for providing you with the facility to trade shares at all: those aren't "wholly and exclusively associated" with any one trade, and so aren't allowable costs for any trades at all. So for a very straightforward purchase of a shareholding and later sale of the same shareholding (with neither trade exceeding £10k in value to avoid cluttering the formulae up with PTM levies) the gain or loss calculation is officially: (disposal proceeds) - (allowable costs) = (sale basic price received) - (purchase basic price paid + stamp duty + purchase commission + sale commission) If one shifts where the sale commission is subtracted, one finds that is equal to: (sale basic price received - sale commission) - (purchase basic price paid + stamp duty + purchase commission) = (bottom line of sale contract note) - (bottom line of purchase contract note) which is probably the easiest way to calculate the final gain or loss, as those bottom line figures are the ones that actually appear in broker statements, etc. But in anything that asks for "disposal proceeds" or "allowable costs", for strict accuracy one needs to adjust to put the sale commission in the right place. 'Improvement' costs are basically anything you've spent on improving or enhancing the asset, provided the improvement is still there when you dispose of it: the classic example is that if you buy a house, build an extension to it, and sell with the extension still there, your allowable costs include both the price you paid for the house and the cost of building the extension. (But if you decide you really don't like the extension as it's turned out and have it demolished, and sell later, they only include the price you paid for the house - neither the cost of building the extension nor the cost of demolishing it are allowable.) It isn't obvious that 'improvement' costs ever apply to shares, but it looks to me as if the rules about rights issues involve them: in particular, the bit of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/share-reorganisations-company-takeovers-and-capital-gains-tax-hs285-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs285-share-reorganisations-company-takeovers-and-capital-gains-tax-2018 between examples 3 and 4 says "There are special rules that deal with any amounts you have to pay on a share reorganisation, such as when you take up a rights issue. ... If the share reorganisation is a rights issue, you add the cost of the further shares acquired in the rights issue to the cost of the original shares." (and example 4 shows an instance of this being done). As far as I can see, that's a pretty good match to how 'improvement' costs are treated, and it does actually fit in with how a rights issue works: the rights are essentially a split-off part of the original shareholding, and subscribing to them improves them into full-blown shares. Finally, I should say that there are a fair number of 'weasel words' like "generally" and "basically" in the above. This is because there are often special-case exceptions to what I've said, that would take far too long to list fully (even if I knew them fully!). An example is what happens if you're given some shares: CGT treats it as if you'd paid the donor market value for them (so both their disposal proceeds and your basic acquisition cost are that market value, not zero). Another is what happens if a company goes bust: its shares will continue to exist while it is administered/liquidated and only cease to exist when all its affairs have been completely dealt with and the company is finally dissolved, potentially quite a few years later. During that time, you haven't actually disposed of the shares, so haven't actually realised your loss - but once the administrator/liquidator has recognised that there's no prospect of shareholders getting anything, you can make a 'negligible value' claim to be treated as if you had realised it. Gengulphus	gengulphus	Read Full Thread Reply

Chat Pages: 329 328 327 326 325 324 323 322 321 320 319 318 Older