Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  0.00 0.0% 4,785.00 4,785.00 4,790.00 4,795.00 4,780.00 4,795.00 50,652 16:03:08
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments 7.8 6.4 59.1 80.9 651

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

Showing 8051 to 8073 of 8350 messages
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Many thanks Gengulphus for all the hard work you put in on this thread. My query is related to the last post. If you transfer stock to your spouse does the value of that stock count towards the reporting threshold? Cheers
Gengulphus, your point re 'difficulties Executors could face if they were required to work out capital gains for assets held for many years' is most valid...and in the recent past I've been thankful when dealing with a relative's Estate to only have to consider valuation at date of death. In case of another relative, fortunately still living, I've had to go back to March 31, 1982 to establish acquisition price of Diageo (then Grand Metropolitan Hotels) and further adjust for other corporate actions over the past 35 years - messy to say the least. The best solution I've found for assets where it would be extremely problematic to determine 'pool cost' is to stagger disposals over more than 1 tax year so that the reporting thresholds in any single tax year are not exceeded, currently £11.3k gains or £45.2k disposal proceeds; in this way nothing needs to be reported. I've recently used this approach to dispose of this same relative's unit funds given that 1) she couldn't recall when and how she acquired the assets (gift or inheritance) and 2) income was re-invested quarterly which amounted to at least 70 individual acquisitions to be accounted for, including quite a number where statements from fund managers were no longer to hand. Phasing the disposals over 2 tax years means the problem is now behind us and extremely onerous CGT accounting was avoided by staying below the reporting limits. [Edit] Above approach may only work where there are gains. In order to claim losses it's necessary to work out the 'pool cost' regardless of whether reporting threshold was crossed.
Provided he keeps them until he dies, no CGT will be payable on them when he dies, and the estate will be assumed to have acquired them on the date of death at their value on that date (known as the 'probate value'). I.e. basically all unrealised capital gains at the date of death are forgotten as far as CGT is concerned. The same applies to any other asset he owns until he dies. Of course, for others who are over the IHT allowance, there is a flip side to that - namely that if they keep assets until they die, those assets definitely will be in their estates as far as Inheritance Tax is concerned... But even when the deceased is over the IHT allowance, this is generally good news for executors, since Inheritance Tax usually depends only on the probate value, which doesn't involve delving back into history, while CGT can involve doing so to a very considerable extent. E.g. if I were to die right now, I imagine my executor would be pleased not to have to work out the CGT on my BT shareholding, which goes back to the original privatisation in December 1984! Executors may nevertheless have to deal with CGT in two circumstances. One is if they sell the asset from the estate, as from the CGT point of view the estate realises the capital gain or loss between probate value and the sale proceeds, and it's the executor's job to deal with the estate's CGT. That gain or loss will probably be quite small, assuming the estate is wrapped up reasonably quickly, and it can often be avoided if necessary by passing the asset directly from the estate to a beneficiary - in that case, the beneficiary takes over the estate's CGT position of having acquired the asset on the date of death at probate value. The other is that executors do have to deal with the deceased's tax affairs up to the date of death. So if the deceased has sold (or otherwise disposed of) an asset before death and needed to tell the taxman about CGT on it, but hadn't yet done so, then the executor takes that job over from them. The net result is that in general, it's best not to try to 'tidy up' assets with big unrealised capital gains on them before death - you'll end up potentially paying more tax and making the executor's job harder! There is however one problem with that approach, which is that one might be forced to dispose of the asset. For shares, the main danger of that is takeovers; for corporate bonds, it's them maturing or having terms and conditions that allow the company to compulsorily redeem them. If the unrealised gain on them is over the CGT allowance and death is reasonably likely to be one or more tax years away, then hanging on to the asset risks being hit by a CGT bill on the entire excess of the gain over the CGT allowance, when the gain could have been realised in stages over more than one tax year to use all of their CGT allowances. I.e. in those circumstances it might be worthwhile to sell enough each tax year to use that year's CGT allowance - whether it is depends on how likely a forced disposal is. I'm familiar with the general rules about CGT that I've described above and just had to write it out, but unfamiliar with "Scottish widows corporate bonds shareclass A" and not particularly experienced at researching bonds (*) - so I'll leave you to try to work that out! So basically, my answer is that you may well be best off not selling any of the bonds and just leaving the CGT situation on them disappear on death - but you should check up on the chances of s forced disposal before death before actually deciding. (*) Assuming it is actually a corporate bond - a fund name might include "corporate bond" if that's what it chiefly invests in, and insurance companies have a habit of calling various investment products "bonds". But I'm not particularly experienced at researching funds or those investment products either! Gengulphus
Hi - my uncle [now aged 82] was sold a reasonably large amount of Scottish widows corporate bonds shareclass A[I assume approx 15 years ago by lloyds]. Income has been reinvested and he believed the bank was doing his tax affairs. This is his main asset and he is planning to leave the fund for his beneficiaries. If he was to die would cgt be payable [I assume they're now worth approx 70k more than he paid]. He is well under the iht limit and lives in rented accommodation. He lives off his state pension with another small add on pension. Just wondering if he should start selling some of the bonds up to his cgt limit every tax year. kind regards and tia.. tt
If I sell stock outside an ISA, and buy it back in an ISA within 30 days, does the 30-day rule apply? (It seems unlikely, but it would make life much simpler.) As you fear, the answer is no. Basically everything you do inside an ISA is completely invisible to CGT, so all that CGT sees is that you've sold the stock outside the ISA. And most moves between inside and outside an ISA are cash transfers (either subscriptions or withdrawals), which makes them invisible to CGT as well. You can withdraw stock from an ISA, but if you do, its acquisition cost afterwards is counted as being its market value on the date of withdrawal (which the ISA manager should tell you if and when you withdraw stock), not as its acquisition cost within the ISA. So it's only its subsequent gains or losses outside the ISA that count for CGT - you can't withdraw a loss-making holding from an ISA to make use of its existing loss. You generally cannot transfer stock into an ISA, which makes that useless for CGT planning as well. There are exceptions for shares obtained from a few types of matured employee share schemes, if they're transferred into the ISA within 90 days (IIRC) of getting them. I believe (but am not certain) that the CGT treatment of those exceptions is basically to forget about the shares transferred in and their acquisition cost, which means basically that any gain or loss on the shares between the time they come out of the employee share scheme and the time they're transferred into the ISA doesn't get taken into account by CGT. That opportunity to nullify gains is however quite limited, firstly by the fact that one's choice of shares it applies to is very limited, secondly by the fact that 90 days isn't long to build up big gains, and thirdly by the ISA allowance - any such transfer is counted as a subscription of an amount equal to the market value of the shares on the day they're transferred in. The net result is that, apart from those limited exceptions for shares obtained from employee share schemes, ISAs cannot be used to create, destroy or modify gains or losses for CGT purposes, and so their role in CGT planning is limited to being able to continue to hold shares that you sell outside the ISA to realise desired gains or losses, rather than changing what those gains and losses are. Gengulphus
Thanks for that. Unfortunately it's just over £3,000, and over 5% of the value, so I shall have some more work to do if we decide to sell the shares. Another question: If I sell stock outside an ISA, and buy it back in an ISA within 30 days, does the 30-day rule apply? (It seems unlikely, but it would make life much simpler.)
"In calculating the cost of her shares for CGT purposes, do I subtract the money she received after the rights issue from the original cost of the shares," Yes, in my view - but I am not qualified to give advice.
The gain or loss is the sales proceeds, translated to sterling at the exchange rate on the day of sale, minus the allowable costs, each translated into sterling at the exchange rate on the day the cost was incurred. In particular, in the simple case of a single buy and a single sale, each with just incidental costs (e.g. broker's commission, stamp duty if applicable), the cost of the shares themselves and the incidental costs of buying are translated at the exchange rate on the day of purchase, and the sales proceeds and the incidental costs of selling are translated at the exchange rate on the day of sale. Note that the currency doesn't actually need to be converted to/from sterling - it's just a matter of working out the sterling equivalent using the exchange rate on the day concerned. But you do need to translate the sales proceeds and each allowable cost to sterling using the right day's exchange rate, and then do the proceeds minus sum of allowable costs subtraction on the sterling amounts - don't do the subtraction on the foreign currency amounts and then translate the resulting gain or loss to sterling. In terms of the paper tax return, the Capital Gains Summary supplementary pages ( ) is obviously relevant, and I've noticed that the Foreign supplementary pages ( ) contain a bit about foreign tax on capital gains on their last page. But I've very little experience with foreign tax (and have no wish to gain more - dealing with one country's taxman is quite enough for me!), so I'll have to leave you with that pointer in case it's relevant and nothing more... Gengulphus
Gengulphus-hope you can help. for the first time i bought a overseas stock,it's ASX listed only,how do i account for this on disposal. say i bought £4k worth of this Australia stock and on disposal the proceeds are the equivalent of sterling of £5k.. How do i account for the £1k gain? Is it just a matter of converting in £ and filling in the cgt returns as if its a uk quoted company or is there other sections that would need to be filled in Really just trying to work out how to fill the cgt elements on the SA forms when you buy and eventually sell a ASX or TSX listed stock. Thanks in advance ps brillant informative thread btw
Thank you very much for your very comprehensive reply Gengulphus. I have sent the tax return in without the OXS loss for 2015-2016. Thank you again for taking the time.
thank you, much appreciated
here and there
I made losses last year. The capital gains allowance…can I roll that over into future years aka rolling over losses from previous years? Your "aka" suggests that you think they're the same thing - which they most definitely are not! The answer about rolling over the CGT allowance is simple: no, you can't. It's a use-it-or-lose-it allowance each tax year. The answer about rolling over losses, or carrying them forward to use the more usual technical term, is more complex. An important point to realise about it is that the rules distinguish between 'same-year losses', which haven't yet been carried forward at all, and 'brought-forward losses', which have already been carried forward at least once. Or put another way, the rules about starting to carry a loss forward are different from those about continuing to do so. The basic rule about starting to carry losses forward is that you can only do so if you cannot use the losses against gains realised in the same tax year. Not "don't want to" - "cannot": e.g. if you've realised £10k of gains and £5k of losses in a tax year, you would doubtless prefer to carry the £5k of losses forward and leave the £10k of gains to be dealt with by the CGT allowance. But that's not allowed: the £5k of losses has to be used against the £10k of gains, reducing them to £5k of net gains - which the CGT allowance then deals with, but more than half of the allowance ends up being lost rather than used. The net result of that is that in normal circumstances, you can only add losses to the losses you're carrying forward if you have realised more losses than gains in a tax year - and only the excess of the losses over the gains realised in that tax year can be added to the losses being carried forward. The rule about continuing to carry losses forward is that you only look at brought-forward losses if your net gains after offsetting the same-year losses are above the CGT allowance. If they are, you offset enough of the brought-forward losses to bring the net gains down to the CGT allowance, or all of them if there aren't enough. So if you have £10k of gains realised in the tax year and £5k of brought-forward losses, you don't offset any of them, and so do leave all of the gains to be dealt with by the CGT allowance (unlike the situation above for same-year losses). Any brought-forward losses that are not offset against gains in that way are carried forward again. Gengulphus
Question about Tax return OXS shares. They went into administration in Feb 2016. The shares still show in my account, with zero value. Do I have to wait until the company shares have gone to put the loss down, or is it possible to put it down for the year 2015 - 2016 ? The company and its shares appear to still exist (based on the fact that the shares still appear on your account); if so, you haven't yet actually realised the loss. (If you want to make completely certain of that, check the company at Companies House, making certain you get exactly the right company name. If it's been dissolved, then the shares no longer exist and you have realised the loss, on the day it was dissolved - but at less than a year since the company went into adminstration, that's pretty unlikely.) Assuming it hasn't been dissolved, you can submit a 'negligible value claim' about it. If HMRC accept the claim, it allows you to claim the loss as though you actually had realised it (and in the process reset your base value to zero so that you cannot claim the loss again when the company actually is dissolved and you actually cease to own the shares). In the negligible value claim, you name a date on which you claim that the shares were of zero value (or very close to zero - close enough to make their value negligible), and that is the date on which you are treated as having realised the loss. The shares need to have had zero or negligible value on that date - if they don't, HMRC won't accept the claim. And having zero or negligible value is not tested by just looking to see whether they are being traded in the markets - otherwise every private company in the country would have be the possible subject of a negligible value claim. The test is instead whether shareholders are likely to be able to get anything non-negligible from owning the shares. Normally, the administrators send out a letter to all registered shareholders to say whether shareholders are likely to get anything from the administration of the company, once they've reached the point of being able to establish whether that's likely or not. If they say such a return is likely, then a negligible value claim won't be accepted; if they say it is unlikely, I would normally expect HMRC to accept a negligible value claim dated for the date named in that letter (or the date of the letter itself) or later. Note though that if one holds shares in a nominee account, one is not a registered shareholder and so the administrators won't send such a letter to you. In that case, you probably want to write to the adminstrators asking whether shareholders are likely to get anything out of the administration, and if the answer is no, how early they were able to say so. The net result of that is that in order to get HMRC to accept a negligible value claim to treat the loss as being realised in the 2015/16 tax year, you need to name 5 April 2016 or earlier in the claim, and HMRC need to accept that the shares really were of zero or negligible value on that date - and the best way of getting HMRC to accept that is for the administrators to have said no return to shareholders is likely by that date. I'm afraid I'm rather doubtful that that will have happened for a company that went into adminstration only about 1-2 months earlier, so I'm not hopeful about you getting the loss accepted for the 2015/2016 tax year. Having said that, I certainly don't know the facts about OXS, and even if I did, I don't know just how HMRC would view them. I.e. that answer is very much a general impression / opinion rather than certain knowledge. If I did want to claim the loss for the 2015/2016 tax year, I think my approach at this late stage would be to submit the tax return without including the loss, send off the enquiry to the administrators if needed, and then if it looked as though a negligible value claim would be accepted, submit one. If the claim is accepted, then amend the tax return to reclaim the overpaid CGT. For details about what's needed in a negligible value claim, see Gengulphus
Please help asap as I am filling in forms as we speak!!! I made losses last year. The capital gains allowance…can I roll that over into future years aka rolling over losses from previous years?
here and there
Question about Tax return OXS shares. They went into administration in Feb 2016. The shares still show in my account, with zero value. Do I have to wait until the company shares have gone to put the loss down, or is it possible to put it down for the year 2015 - 2016 ? Thanks for any replies.
David Many thanks G2
What were the terms? I would show a sale of the old shares with zero loss or gain, and a buy of the new shares at the same cost. A note by each share should satisfy the tax man. I am not qualified to give advice.
How would you show the reverse takeover of fastnet equity to become Amryt Pharma in the CGT calculator. Thanks G2
Gengulphus Appreciate what you say. Many thanks for the reply.
seroserio, Sorry, but I don't do this sort of stuff by private message, email, etc, only on the boards - no exceptions. Nothing personal - I just have limits on how I'm willing to use my time, and this is one of them: I regard time spent on private replies to financial questions as not well spent, because only one person can benefit from them, because any mistakes I make are less likely to be corrected, because others cannot fill in for me if I don't know the answer or am unavailable at the time, and a few other reasons. I will say very briefly that no, I've no real knowledge of the area your question is about, but that in a situation where I'd made a mistake applying for a financial product, I would go to the provider, explain the mistake and ask them for help sorting it out. Honest mistakes that one sorts out as soon as reasonably possible after realising that they've happened generally cause one much less trouble... Gengulphus
Gengulphus I've sent you a PM - hope that is OK.
Hi david. Now working fine. Thanks for checking.
Works for me - on Opera, Firefox, and Google Chrome. I've got an ancient computer with Windows XP. I do have another machine running Windows 10 - I'll try that if you are continuing to have trouble.
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