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TSLA 1x Tsla

0.05 (0.01%)
21 Jun 2024 - Closed
Delayed by 15 minutes
Name Symbol Market Type
1x Tsla LSE:TSLA London Exchange Traded Fund
  Price Change % Change Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Traded Last Trade
  0.05 0.01% 355.25 341.75 368.65 - 142 16:35:21

1x Tsla Discussion Threads

Showing 10876 to 10896 of 10975 messages
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The Govenments Global Warming SCAM Update:


Net Zero Watch: The wheels are coming off the narrative of fear

Video: Mark Levin sussed the government scam
The truth about global warming

If Zero CO2 was ever achieved every tree on the planet would die
VIDEO: A Dearth of Carbon Dr. Patrick Moore

Can't see them going bankrupt - they raised so much cash when they were the "in thing"! But I can see them losing a packet this year and maybe beyond

Bloomberg - 9/5/24:

Hungary and China Are Fellow Travelers in a $10,000 Electric Car

Viktor Orbán is learning how to bring affordable EVs to the European Union. Democracies can meet the challenge, too.

If you listen to Chinese President Xi Jinping and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, you might think that cheap electric cars and authoritarianism are joined at the hip. It’s up to rich democracies to prove them wrong.

Xi is visiting Hungary on the last day of his trip to Europe. In doing so, he’s returning a compliment Budapest has paid Beijing in recent years, copying China’s developmentalist model and disdain for democracy to build a burgeoning green technology supply chain in the heart of the European Union.

“On the path of Chinese-style modernization and development, we see Hungary as a traveling companion,” Xi wrote in an op-ed in Magyar Nemzet, the newspaper of the ruling Fidesz party.

Since 2019, first South Korean and then Chinese lithium-ion battery companies have flocked to Eastern Europe, taking advantage of low costs, access to the EU’s single market, and proximity to existing car factories in southern Germany and Slovakia.

Punching Above Its Weight

China is far and away the biggest battery producer. But Hungary is at number four.

Hungary alone has received about €20 billion ($21 billion) in electric vehicle investments. Factories run by Samsung SDI Co., SK On Co., and Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. have made the country of 10 million people the fourth-largest producer of lithium-ion cells after China, South Korea, and the US. BYD Co., vying with Tesla Inc. for the crown of world’s biggest EV producer, has chosen it as the location for its first European plant.

Most remarkable of all, in a world where a coming flood of cheap Chinese clean technology is being treated as an existential threat justifying tariffs, investigations, and bans, Hungary is competing on cost. If you want to be able to buy a $10,000 electric car like BYD’s Seagull outside of China, that’s going to be essential.

The average lithium-ion battery pack produced in Hungary right now comes to about $105.7 per kilowatt-hour, according to a BloombergNEF cost model. That’s only a sliver above $104.5/kWh from Chinese plants, and likely well below it after accounting for the sum a European purchaser would have to spend on transport. By contrast, Canada, Germany, the UK and US are all north of $120/kWh.

Pile 'em High

Hungary's battery prices are the only ones in the rich world that compete with China

The cost edge is crucial because some 40% of what you’re paying for when buying an electric vehicle is the battery pack. If European and US carmakers want to be able to compete with Chinese rivals on price as well as trade restrictions, they’re going to have to learn from what Hungary has done to make its power cells so cheap.

What’s the trick? The key insight is something Elon Musk recognized a decade ago in announcing the site that has become synonymous with colossal battery plants, Gigafactory One in Nevada. Mass production cuts costs by operating at epic magnitudes. If your new factory covers less than 100 hectares (247 acres) — roughly a third the size of New York’s Central Park — it’s not going to pass muster.

To play in that game, you need cheap land and excellent connections to electricity, water, and transport networks. It’s not easy to find such sites in the richer countries of Western Europe and North America, where permitting and red tape means it can take $1.7 million and several years to build (or even fail to build) a San Francisco public toilet. Giant new chemicals plants are rarely popular with the neighbors, including in Hungary. Protests, regulations, and exhaustive environmental impact reviews can prevent green technology from getting built for years, or even decades.

A cheap workforce is even more decisive. About 80% of the additional cost for batteries made in Germany over Hungary is the labor expense, according to BloombergNEF’s data. Orbán’s failure to close the income gap with Western Europe gives Hungary a potent cost advantage.


Hungary's cost advantage over Germany is mostly about land, labor, and power.

The last element is cash. Hungary’s 9% corporate tax rate is the lowest in Europe, and Orbán has also been able to use EU funds earmarked for regional development and energy transition to provide sweeteners and encourage foreign manufacturers to set up shop.

This policy mix is almost identical to what’s driven China’s industrial development for two decades. For all the rhetoric about predatory overcapacity and lavish state subsidies, the core innovation in China’s model is the Special Economic Zone: a designated region where the government provides investors with cheap land, labor, infrastructure, and modest tax breaks, and then lets them get on with things.

If Europe and North America are serious about decarbonization, they can repeat that pattern without any of the authoritarianism so precious to Xi and Orbán. Land and labor costs are also pretty low in Poland, Mexico, Romania and Bulgaria. Governments are free to offer tax and investment incentives for green technology, and should be doing so wherever possible.

Get a supply chain going, moreover, and you can establish the sort of industrial cluster that’s sprouting up now in Hungary, and develop the kind of process innovations that make China such a formidable competitor.

That’s a much more hopeful future than one where rich countries fall short on decarbonization and drift ever closer to conflict because tariffs and trade wars are cutting them off from cheap Chinese technology. On a planet heading for net zero, there is more than enough green investment needed to ensure that every part of the world gets its share.

simon gordon
some are saying tesla not far off from bankruptcy..ive placed a short on them
cfb212 May '24 - 00:10 - 10833 of 10834
0 0 0
Pierre: It says in 2024 NASA's X-43A achieved 5,000mph:

That is way short of the 25,000 mph orbital escape velocity SpaceX need.


Weel, yes, but not sure of your point. You don't go from Mach 2 to Mach 25 in one jump. Looks like serious funding restarted about 8 years ago, after a 35 year break. Maybe, with continuous funding, they'd be launching stuff into space today - much more cheaply then any rocket can.

You're correct to be sceptical to what bb posters post as in 10828 et el ....
Pierre: Combinations of engines doubles the complexity and mass. Having anything other than just a rocket engine will stop you putting anything heavier than Richard Branson's thong into orbit.

Hopefully, after the link you posted, you'll see these are rational and imv pragmatic real solutions to launching payloads into space.

To get to Mach 24 at the edge of the atmosphere would need further development in materials, and cooling with the hydrogen fuel. Cooling with the fuel pre ignition itself would provide substantial thrust even before it burnt. (I did the calcs for that contribution plus other scramjet stuff as my undergrad final year project - an interesting bit of fluids and thermodynamics.)

pierre oreilly
Pierre: It says in 2024 NASA's X-43A achieved 5,000mph:

That is way short of the 25,000 mph orbital escape velocity SpaceX need.

cfb2 - no, scramjets and some ramjets don't add weight because they can be external with only the shape of the body to do the compression. Ramjets (for the Mach 1 to Mach 6 regime) can be just some fuel injectors pumping avgas into the high pressure subsonic airflow caused by the body shape. For the Scramjets (Mach 6 to Mach 24), the compression would again come from the body shape, but this time the airlow would be supersonic and high pressure, with Hydrogen pumped into that airflow. (Hydrogen because it's the only fuel which releases heat fast enough in the supersonic airstream and doesn't suffer from chemical disassociation).

I don't understand about your payroll comment - you simply have more hydrogen injectors (effectively each set an 'engine' if you want to carry more. Rockets of course have tiny payloads since most of the fuel is used to propel the rest of fuel and oxygen so it can get into orbit. The total weight on lift off is only just under the thrust of the rockets - you can see this, the acceleration on full thrust is very small to start with, but as fuel and oxygen (or equivalent) are burnt the weight lowers and the acceleration increases. In other words, airbreathing engines need orders of magnitude less thrust that a rocket for the same payload. So your thrust argument is incorrect.

Scramjets (that is, ramjets where the air after compression is supersonic) have flown in some form (i.e. non burning) on the x15 hypersonic research aircraft 40/50 years ago, and only a lack of funding stopped them. At that time,a scramjet was a lump of metal, and not just a body shape. Plans were to have a reusable airbreathing launch vehicle with a bank of 6 turbojets which could adjust to become ramjets, then a bank of 6 scramjets. There's nothing magical or impossible about it. I would have had a very different career if the US hadn't killed it off.

pierre oreilly
hpcg: As I've already said, I'm not smart enough to time the market and I can't see the chart telling me anything other than historical trading data. I'm not doing candlesticks, gaps, technical analysis, figures, Elliot waves, harmonic patterns, trends, wedges and if I see a crab, bat or shark in the data I'll seek psychiatric help and please keep your entrails to yourself!

Seriously, I know you mean well and I've tried some of the above but my attempts to time my investments are no better than chance and the stress isn't worth it for me. I have my models, I adjust them as news comes in and I vary my holdings accordingly and I've been holding some shares for over a decade. I've taken this approach over almost 20 years and it's the only thing that works reliably for me.

With that in mind, if Musk's robotaxi estimate is a couple of years too early it's not going to make much difference to me.

Dave Karpf - 5/5/24:

What Elon Musk's favorite game tells us about him

A review, of sorts, of Polytopia.

simon gordon
cfb2 - knowing what you do about taxis, why would the smallest vehicle be the robotaxi test bed? I deliberatly did not say the M2 has been canned, which implies a permanent cessation. I can quite see how Musk can very honestly say that information is false. Musk said this in 2018 so his words on autonomy are no longer taken as realistic, investors are in show-me mode.

The chart is telling you what investors think right now, and very clearly big money is moving out. You can bet against them if you like, but any one PI's 5 or 6 figure holding is a straw on the ocean. Why not wait for a clear consolidation and bottom formation? If you are right you make more money.

Pierre: Combinations of engines doubles the complexity and mass. Having anything other than just a rocket engine will stop you putting anything heavier than Richard Branson's thong into orbit.

Have a look at Reactive Engine's Skylon or Virgin Galactic's Spaceship III for combined engine technology. You'll note that both of these companies were founded before SpaceX and neither have put anything into orbit yet or likely to for the foreseeable future.

If you know how to successfully make a ramjet engine suitable for getting something into orbit then most governments would like to talk to you. Bear in mind your craft would also require a technology to get your craft moving sufficiently fast for ramjet to work. And the impulse of ramjet will be a fraction of what you get from a rocket.


It was always going to be the case that complacent/coddled Western automakers would be disrupted by EV upstarts.

The surprise being that it is no longer Tesla* that is doing the disrupting.

*Is this an own-goal by TSLA? If the cybertruck and Xwitter are anything to go by, yes.

cfb2 - why would any analyst have model 2 numbers for 2025? As far as we are aware it has been sidelined, and even without that it would take 1-2 years from the unveiling to production starting. There was maybe some kind of prototype seen at the Berlin works earlier this year, but it looks more like a hacked about 3/Y. The model 2 is inevitable for Europe at some point, but the company also has a refresh program to get going, while the truck will never see tarmac outside of North America.#

These matter because a) free cash flow is now negative, b) stock compensation expense either needs to increase dilution or becomes ineffective as a pay incentive. One outstanding benefit of a public listing is to be able to pay employees partially in stock, and the mega caps have made full use of that in their rise.

Inside EVs - 9/5/24:

I Went To China And Drove A Dozen Electric Cars. Western Automakers Are Cooked

A trip to the Beijing Auto Show reveals just how advanced China's EVs are. So what are the so-called "foreign" automakers doing about it?

simon gordon
I really don't think Tesla is the way forward to save the planet (actually save us)
It’s an unexpected twist that some NIMBY/degrowther greens are indirectly allied with big hydrocarbon.

Technology is and always was the solution.

Protesters trying to storm the Tesla factory in Germany is not a good news story. I know it has been ongoing, but things seem to be heating up.
hpcg: Some analysts are starting to model in the robotaxis but most aren't. If you aren't then you're only modelling in the cars and power storage business and it's difficult to justify the price, especially if you don't believe their model 2 will exist by the start of 2025.

simon: It made me chuckle too but also because the regulators are asleep at the wheel.

I have no idea when AGI will happen.

What I do know is the current AI is good enough to disrupt numerous industries. It'll start at the monotonous and mundane and work it's way up with pseudo intelligence. It doesn't need AGI for it to be disruptive.

"DC, the software to land a rocket vertically at a precise point is pretty easy."

Odd that only one company seems to have solved the problem. If easy, you would have thought many would do it?


Sure the big money is focused on what you say, the smaller money seems transfixed on FSD.



I have no idea if what you say is correct. I don't read the papers like you. Because the AI hype (alarmism) is so immense I try to read the sceptics.

This tweet made me laugh:

I met someone helping the British government with AI regulation. When I asked what they were going to regulate, he said he wasn't sure yet, and this seemed the most intelligent thing I've heard anyone say about AI regulation so far.

-Paul Graham, 1st May 2024.

simon gordon
The conversation here is pretty irrelevant to Tesla. Money mangers are not much focused on AI, how well FSD works (in terms of their opinion), how well or not the cars are built. Theories around false accounting are also irrelevant because those are so few and far between. Their decisions are made on publicly available data around sales volumes, margin, and data analytics of owners' opinions, potential buyers opinions and so forth. Opinion counts on build quality, FSD, value for money, repurchases, the competition and such like. No one throwing hundreds of millions around does so on their own opinion. Some will use charts, others are trackers and closet tracker. Anyone using a chart is selling.

Almost no one can predict the future of autonomous vehicles, neural networks, AI and so forth. So no one is using that kind of speculation to trade the shares.

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