Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:14

thanks serratia,is that a barrel as in oil barrel , as in 42 US gallons or 159 litres.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 17:12

I did wonder re supply as well, there seems to be plenty of buys but not too many sells , unless a large delayed sell trade shows through.
Looks like Winterfloods are still working through their stock, guess we will know when they have finished, as modest buying could well push the share price north.
In the meantime it's an opportunity to pick up stock at what looks a modest market cap of £12.5m.

I made a note of this bit of NR's opening remarks on Wednesday:

'There is no-one in the world producing tonnes of graphene. We produce a very very small quantity of very high quality graphene. We consider ourselves to be the leaders in the UK, if not the world at the moment, although that is not substantiated'

£12.5m m.cap and near term profitability doesn't seem to be pricing in a lot, imo.

[serratia] 11/11/2016 17:07

Barrels. The figure is for sub 10 layers. 10+ would be denser and take up less volume.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 16:55

cheers serratia, is bls = billion litres? excuse my ignorance.

Presumably the volume/weight changes depending on how many layers thick the graphene is.....

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:53

I've been out most of the day but noticed something unsual before I went which is still the same at close.

Winters were on both the lead bid and lead offer. So speculating it made me wonder if they had been dealing with a supply, may be near the end and want some too in the normal market.

Also for the first time as soon as 4.30pm hit and the auction 100,000 came onto the bid at 12p. So perhaps the insti presentation has kickstarted some interest.

The last few days also seem to have seen a drop in those late reports. So I'm getting curious wondering if the end of the supply is in sight.

[serratia] 11/11/2016 16:52

1 ton graphene = 38,000 bls.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 16:33

sg1

very interesting re your guess on litres per tonne, if you find any data on that I woulds like to know, thanks.

I did some calculations but I based it on weight addition,whereas , as per the presentation, VRS's additions are on a volume basis and as graphene is ultra-light, then it makes a big difference as to if you use volume or weight. Lesson learnt!

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:26

Oh and another issue for China and anywhere else.

For those that weren't there they had a 1 gram pot and my guess is 4 of those would fill a coffee mug.

So for one KG you are talking about 250 mugs, then 1 tonne 250,000 mugs.

Guessing here and I'll try and find data but say 4 coffee mugs to a litre and you have 60,000 plus litres per tonne.

A large 40 foot shipping container would therefore only be able to carry about 1 tonne of GNPs.

Then of course you can't just pile it all into one big bag as the weight will amplify the agglomeration issue for GNPs under stress.

[superg1] 11/11/2016 16:10

A major factor re China is shelf life but not shelf life in the way we understand it.

EG

If out were to make it in China then ship it you then have the transfer time, time in customs etc. I follow some Chile exports and they take about 4-6 weeks to complete the supply cycle.

The issue with few platelet or any platelet GNPs is their agglomeration trendanacies. If you leave them in a container as time passes they will attach themselves to each other defeating the few layer multi-layer properties. On that basis you also can't build up an extensive inventory.

Therefore China could do all it likes but the time the product got anywhere it could be 10's or 100's of layers thick and return to it's prior form of graphite.

[theklf] 11/11/2016 14:31

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but on the IPR issue I was reassured that they seem to be controlling it carefully.

For example if my memory is correct they mentioned something re there is a 'secret' facility which even some of the presenters on Wednesday had not even received clearance to go to yet.

Rather like the formula for Coca-Cola there are only a few people who know all the secrets it seems the tiered approach allows them to maintain the secret sauce whilst still executing business development opportunities with outside partners. I think this may also explain why they are targetting smaller companies initially as the larger companies will be risk-averse and would probably want some contractual certainty of getting hold of the IPR in the event of (however unlikely) VRS going bankrupt/key persons leaving etc

[che7win] 11/11/2016 12:35

The Prophet,
PM sent, thanks for your reply and the offer.

This is a good way to keep details off the Chinese - a patent to protect and the additional know how kept well away from any patent application! Exactly what I'd want them to do.

Thanks Superg for your reply...

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:23

ps, che7win, if you wanted the recent house broker's note with their projections re profitability, cash etc, just pm me with your e-mail
tp

[superg1] 11/11/2016 11:22

Will chat about that later Che.

I have a degree of confidence about cash due to the double up on production. That makes no sense unless there is demand and if they are selling what they produce then no need at all to worry about cash imo. If they were selling current rates no need to worry about cash either. There is no inventory option in the sector of GNPs

Not worried about IP at this time as there are many aspects from production to suspension and you need all the parts, plus the patent record will have missing parts.

All that and absolutley 1000's opf different uses for the technology or as a scientist out it, It could end up in all man made objects. He left the bio bit which is years off, out.

[the prophet] 11/11/2016 11:22

che7win

don't want to butt in here and I'm sure superg has more info than me, but just two points:

1) in the meeting yesterday NR said , yes, they have the patent but , and I questioned him on this to be sure, they have moved beyond the patent such that those trying to look at the patent and copy or circumnavigate won't succeed, least not in doing what VRS do.

2) The house broker forecasts profitability in the coming financial year, the one that starts in just over 4 months time!

3) cash , the question was raised at the meet, they don't want to dilute, if theres something out there they say and they want, then yes, they might have to raise. But Neill was very keen to keep dilution to an absolute minimum whilst also being aware that money can help grow a business faster.

edit, whoops, ended up as three points!

[che7win] 11/11/2016 11:11

superg,
some extraordinary research here, well done, and thanks for the heads up here a few months back.
I'm a lurker.

The chart looks good here IMO, but I'm not a holder, just watching for now.
I've probably been frightened off having some experiences over the past few years in companies at early stages of development - we don't need to go there!

I think the technology is second to none and will be a sea change in so many areas.

I have a couple of simple thoughts here:

1. the patents are crucial - China is a country I don't trust at all - could they get their hands on the techniques VRS has cracked - I see they are filing patents in China?

2. The balance sheet - looks like they have cash but how much is needed before they become profitable? Would be nice to see the market cap rising as they progress so that dilution is minimised.

Back to lurking.

[shavian] 11/11/2016 10:45

I was just following up on TP's link to the IDTechEx show where ND is presenting. It's worth a shufti just to see the range of exhibitors and speakers, many of which are British, or at least UK-linked. All three classified under 'Graphene Applications' are Brits: VRS,Haydale and Cambridge Nanosystems. Another UK company, Perpetuus, also caught my eye:



Perpetuus are looking to produce graphene at 'tonnes per week rather than grams per hour', and at $30 per kilo. I'm sure SG will have something to say about that!

Now over to the Bromley skeleton sled (or 'skeleton shed' as I had originally mis-read it - the mind boggled). Bromley is clearly big into the new winter sport of BaseBoarding which looks kinda scary fun. But as a lifelong skier and one-time Cresta rider (50 years ago) the idea of mixing baseboarders and skiers on the same bit of hill is to me an absolute non-starter - potentially lethal to both. It's bad enough having to cope with Gays-on-Trays (snowboarders to you) when skiing, without having hoardes of rugrats on baseboards taking you out below the knees. Maybe it's just me getting old!

Keep up the great posts everybody. Judging by the rising volume the story is beginning to creep out.

SG: did you manage to identify any of the instis attending the later briefing at 1200?

[superg1] 11/11/2016 08:27

BTW

I'm not the only one that has been going through htis with a fine tooth comb. On the figures and other aspects someone is doing that in great detail but doesn't post yet and may never do so.

Haydale.

I did hear Craig going on about the process there as I liked what Haydale had. I couldn't quite catch what he said as there was general chatter but I did hear that they didn't have one aspect. Up to that point I has assumed Haydale have a process exclusive to them. It may well be that it isn't exclusive and defined as such by Haydale so misread by me as I haven't looked. I say that as someone gave me their notes last night which filled in the gap of what I didn't hear. I didn't ask it's just in their notes. So I'm thinking Haydale aren't exclusive on that and it could be a problem for them

So now I'm off to look at Haydale's tech to try and work out what is missing on my previous exclusivity assumption.

BTW

Haydale DO NOT produce graphene or GNPs. They use GNPs supplied by others and functionalise them. I take that to me putting them in a form of use that defeats the clumping isuse.

Knowing what I know I'd never buy Haydale functionalised GNPs unless Haydale told me whose GNPs they are and show me the data sheet about the supplied GNPs. Then having viewed the data sheet I could then consider if they are fit for purpose.

I do not consider the range currently advertised by Goodfellow as of any use to enhance composites re strength and other factors they have 50 layer average GNPs which in the fullness of time won't be called GNPs imo.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 23:58

and other oral uses:

Dental diseases, which are caused by the overgrowth of certain bacteria in the mouth, are among the most common health problems in the world. Now scientists have discovered that a material called graphene oxide is effective at eliminating these bacteria, some of which have developed antibiotic resistance.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 23:30

> I assume you thought you were joking :-)

I was only half joking - although I still have all my own teeth (despite a misspent youth sucking pear drops) then stronger false teeth was indeed one thing that did come to mind to be improved upon with graphene technology. Let us see which year they become available in order to buy them for my wife's Xmas present !!!

After a bad day at work then I can console myself by being thankful that after many years of training then I haven't ended-up doing false teeth research. Any idea what the outcome of the research was?

[superg1] 10/11/2016 19:20

Cougar

Evodental are with VRS in trials.

I note Victrex are in that field too. Having just looked at Victrex I'm sure such GNP PEEK reults would grab their attention unless they want to move to 2nd of course.

I assume you thought you were joking :-) That's the GNP spectrum for you.



Now a British firm, 2-DTech, hopes to use it to improve false teeth. Alongside dental implant centre Evodental, it’s secured a £150,000 grant from the Government-backed Innovate UK to conduct research over the next year.
Read more at

[superg1] 10/11/2016 19:15

Linking things up. As I undersatnd it they recemntly doubled their GNP capability.

The recent carbon fibre results news

Professor Robert Young, Professor of Polymer Science and Technology at the university, said the [unnamed] major UK company is evaluating graphene for use in a number of different structural components with production possible within six months.

Neill Ricketts, Versarien’s chief executive, added it was seeing real demand from commercial customers.

“We intend to significantly scale up our capacity to produce graphene to meet the demand we are seeing, which is only expected to increase."

So stitching it all together I suspect they don't need cash due to the graphene interest and sales. On sample evalution sales levels of £400 per gram put that at £200k per week in theory.

It doesn't make sense to scale up now if the demand isn't there. While typing I just thought, didn't he say further scale ups would take about 4 weeks to set up.

So while scale up when you have 100 grams per day to produce a product that needs to be fresh due to the clumping issue.

Logically is can only point to demand. We go on about cash being tight so why spend on the scale up which only takes 4 weeks unless the demand is there now.

BTW doubling up is £400k per week but assume all small sample/research sales.

Either way on that front it could be doing very well on bulk purchases.

I'm not going to chew over that, the shed is getting some graphene paint tomorrow.

[cougar99] 10/11/2016 18:49

So my question before going to bed (as I am several time zones in front of VRS time zone) is that has anyone thought of using this technology for enhanced strength false teeth .... I'll leave you to chew on that this evening - Goodnight :-)