Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[superg1] 07/11/2016 15:21

I had been wondering about the ISDX market in recent weeks and particularly obvious with VRS.

ISDX trades don't appear on level 1 (ADVFN monitor). So if you look at the montior or other sites like LSE there are no trades as such but there are. EG about 60k of buys today in 6 trades.

They show up on level 2 but not the monitor, so you either have to track ISDX or have levels 2 to know about them.

EDIT

About 160k now as someone just bought 100k

Here is what changed

We're delighted to announce a new data and trading integration for the IRESS Proquote Global trading platform with ISDX (ICAP Securities and Derivatives Exchange), enabling electronic trading between brokers and market makers.

The integration facilitates streamlined trading for ISDX Primary stocks and UK stocks registered for trading on ISDX. All broking firms already subscribing to Level 1 ISDX will be automatically upgraded at no additional cost, so they can seamlessly navigate to the Level 2 Screen in the same way as they do with LSE data. Functionality for trading directly with RSPs for both ISDX Primary stocks, and UK stocks registered for trading on ISDX, is also available. This enables dealers to pull up competing quotes for a stock from RSPs.

Here are the VRS trades today



BTW

ISDX trade times show an hour behind level 2. The 100k was at 3.15pm on level 2

[superg1] 07/11/2016 13:41

Just of note.

I was in comms with someone in the advanced composites sector who is not talking from an investment point of view just commenting.

EG

Hexcel is overwhelmed at the moment by Bombardier, Airbus and Boeing aerospace requirements, where they get twice the price for the same materials under the generality of certification under NADCAP, ISO AS9001 and audited production facilities.

I'd never heard of Hexcel so looked them up. They happen to be a public company in the US M/C $4 Bill in the composites sector.

Only mentioned from the point of view re demand for composites probably due to emissions reduced through weight reduction

Hexcel today offers a breadth and depth of products and services that is unmatched in the industry. From our worldwide manufacturing facilities we manufacture the full spectrum of advanced material solutions - this includes everything from carbon fiber and reinforcement fabrics to pre-impregnated materials (or "prepregs") and honeycomb core, tooling materials and finished aircraft structures.'

[superg1] 07/11/2016 10:44

So AGM released news as if the rods were now launched and revenue generating when in fact they don't launch until next year.

The CEO bigged that up in the year end news too

"I am pleased to report that we have made substantial progress this year towards commercial adoption of Applied Graphene Materials' graphene in our target markets. Our first production order, announced last week, was an important step for the Group and confirmation of the significant opportunities we anticipate as we continue to invest in collaborative partnerships to accelerate adoption in our target markets. Additionally, and to support this, we have made progress on scaling up our proprietary production capacity to meet further demand."

They also restate the launch

Already, Century Composites, a leading manufacturer of fishing rods has recognised the benefits of achieving additional performance in the design of its products. Recently, Century Composites launched its own range of products, branded Graphex, which utilises our graphene in the composite structure.

[superg1] 07/11/2016 10:34

Well there you go

We have several rods in final development using a unique combination of graphene and a carbon fibre/resin matrix. These rods will be available early next year under our brand Graphex.

The release of information by our supplier of graphene was primarily aimed at their customers in oil, paints, composites and London Stock Exchange where they are a listed company.

No it wasn't so did they misquote Century

Simon Chilcott, Managing Director of Century, commented:

"We are delighted to have launched our Graphex range of rods which are now available"

[superg1] 07/11/2016 10:21

Talking of an RNS and nomads.

I note AGMs M/C went up about £8 to £10 mill since the fishing rod news now that is just down to tight shares.

I looked at century composites and it seems revenue there from some comeent is just over the £1 mill mark. Now the news covers the 'high specification range of fishing rods' so will be a fraction of the revenue then GNPs will be around .1% to 1% of the weigth of such rods which won't a be a lot. I'd be surprised if the revenue is much mote than at best of 10's of 1000's.

The results were just 3 days later it could have been added to that. It's not material news imo re their financial position UNLESS the nomad was using to 10% change in revenue rule which is product sale terms needed to be over £7k. But then the nomad may be oblivious to the low percentages needed re GNPs and Century apparent revenues

"We are delighted to have launched our Graphex range of rods which are NOW available."

Perhaps I'm not trying hard enough but I can't find them anywhere. I thought products for sale on their own website would be a good start but it comes up blank.

In fact the only way I can find news re century and Graphex rods is media releases which derive from the AGM announcement.

It's seems highly probable with such a launch Century would advertise that at at the very least on their own website.

Just my opinion which at the moment at best is a very very poor view about AGM and the way they pump out news.

[superg1] 07/11/2016 08:34

One of the key areas for the Royce institute (graphene). I note the mention of setting standards which is much needed in the industry and will see imo a lot of 'Graphene products' no longer called that.

'2D material research at the Sir Henry Royce Institute will focus on developing the key underpinning science needed for future product development. The University of Manchester will establish a suite of functionalisation of 2D materials with in-situ characterisation/testing capability which, combined with existing infrastructure at Manchester, will provide UK academic groups and companies with a single access point for the development, production and analysis of 2D materials. These materials will be exploited in inks for printable electronics, enhanced composites, coatings and membranes, and in electrodes in fuels cells, lithium-ion batteries and supercapacitors.'

'In the long term, this facility, in collaboration with the National Physical Laboratory, will lead the way in formulating standards for 2D materials, providing a crucial point of reference for the 2D materials supply chain in the UK.'

[superg1] 07/11/2016 08:29

Worth a read. Some bold statements re the UK intent on advanced materials



It will allow the UK to grow its world-leading research and innovation base in advanced materials, science and technology that underpins all industrial sectors.'


The relevant institute with it's hub in Manchester Uni



The Sir Henry Royce Institute for Advanced Materials is the UK’s home of advanced materials research and innovation. The £235m Institute will allow the UK to grow its world-leading research and innovation base in advanced-materials science, which is fundamental to all industrial sectors and the national economy. It is a critical component of the Government’s Northern Powerhouse initiative and an attempt to boost economic growth in the North of England and balance the UK economy.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 19:31

Glad to find someone else that has similar experience with nomads and understands how corrupt they can be.

On heat sinks it's only just dropped in re the acquisition so it meeds time to embed before we know the true sales and costs etc.

[the prophet] 06/11/2016 19:24

SGAgree wholeheartedly re Nomads, one advantage to being on the main market is you can dispense with their useless services. I know of companies that have to fight tooth and nail to put info out there against the Nomads wishes.Thanks re heat sink business, not really looked at that side yet and didn't appreciate or know too much about the acquisition.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 18:47

The answer re heat sinks was that the acquired company had already lost 50% of it's business and DD on what was left fitted synergies /needs for VRS and their heat sink plans. I suppose just like AAC it offers up an existing customer base. I think recent news said potential orders of £1.4 mill in the pipeline.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 18:33

On the heat sink revenue don't forget the vast majority of that is from the acquisition, not the sale of their copper foam.

I'll find the answer on that one as someone asked the company and shared it with me.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 18:29

TP

I had the same thought re the Nomad. I don't trust nomads having had a run in with them on other shares. Many times I have been told by CEOs that the nomad blocked or took info out of news put forward by the company. Nomads do have motives like clients.

I suspect VRS wanted the info put there so took the non reg route.

Nomads imo are simply fee hungry money grabbers looking for fund raising fees and gains. That's generally how far their interest goes.

I can show numerous occasions on many shares where they have refused to release material negative news. I don't just post it I ring them and they refuse to talk etc.

[the prophet] 06/11/2016 16:00

Another point of interest is I note AAC Cryoma has had some £9m invested in it , which possibly indicates VRS has something of a bargain with a purchase price of c. £2mhttp://www.aaccyroma.co.uk/about-us/But it's currently a low margin business, so the purchase price is probably about right. But if VRS are able to use that £9m investment to develop a range of graphene enhanced products then it could look an astute piece of business.Let's see what Wednesday brings.

[the prophet] 06/11/2016 15:44

Presumably VRS's NOMAD advised it was RNS non, seems a strange decision to me.Re the heat sink business, the forecast sales growth is impressive but the contribution to operating profit less so.Could be a number of reasons, perhaps it's just a low margin business where only modest premiums can be charged for improved performance or perhaps the fixed overheads are such that the business has not yet had a chance to show its true mettle.The forecasts for the heat sink business for the next three years are t/o of £1.9m, £2.7m and £3m with op of minus 0.3, +0.1 then +0.2.I'm certainly not knocking this side of the business, as that is decent sales traction by anyone's standards and an increase of £0.3m sales from '18 to '19 results in a doubling of op. That may well indicate that op could take off once sales get north of £3m, although I must admit I have no idea of the potential for this business.Interesting to note the graphene business is forecast to turn in impressive operating profit margins of around 50% in '18 and '19, not forgetting '18 financial year starts in under 5 months time, as f/y ends at end of March, so all relatively near term.As VRS includes two early stage businesses, the forecast time to substantive profits is ,imo, quite short and presumably testament to the commercial nous and experience of the bod.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 13:28

Looking at rns definitions it seems it should have been a regulatory because it had the potential to affect the share price.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 12:25

TP

I take the reason for non reg was due to

'the NGI have indicated that they wish to purchase a significant quantity of graphene'

So in that sense it's not a confirmed order but I do suspect it would be significant and generate a further rns if the order is confirmed.

I'm also wondering if they will have to rns pre open day on performance achieved as it seems that's what we will be told about.

Also worth asking why it was non reg as it is material news if you understand it but again they haven't listed detail.

They have effectively told the market so perhaps no need to rns again and we can then get the underlying data away from the eyes of the market.

EG

'has demonstrated the benefit of adding graphene, particularly with regard to significantly enhancing the strength of the structure.'

Professor Robert Young FREng, FRS, Professor of Polymer Science and Technology at The University of Manchester, commented: "The successful project demonstrated that the addition of 2-DTech XT graphene to the epoxy resin matrix was able to give a significant improvement in the performance of carbon-fibre reinforced epoxy composites.

So that answers the performance but not in numbers

Our supply of graphene to the NGI, coupled with our own dedicated graphene enhanced plastics manufacturing facility, established through our recent acquisition of AAC Cyroma, is just the start of the commercialisation phase. We intend to significantly scale up our capacity to produce graphene to meet the demand we are seeing, which is only expected to increase."


It's all there the market just doesn't read it, but in the case of VRS it's just us few here reading it I suspect. Then reading is one thing and understanding another.

Had it been AGM I'm sure it would have been a regulatory rns about 3 pages long.

As I said before VRS stay quiet compared to the normal AIM chest beating, I only knew about the US award in 2016 for their heat sinks as I stumbled across it.

EG

'Versarien has just been recognised for its innovation in thermal management by one of the United States’ leading technology publications.'

'It's team assess literally thousands of entries, covering all aspects of the global electronics business eventually arriving at 12 different companies – with Versarien being the only British winner.'


I don't believe you will find that in news. Now what would any other AIM company have done with that.

[the prophet] 06/11/2016 11:55

I'm surprised the NGI news was a non- reg one. Ok the value of the graphene to be supplied may be non-material, but would have thought the news was a 'RNS' as in price sensitive.I guess 2D need to be able to produce GNP at significantly lower costs than current methods to get mass adoption and not just for a few specific high end bits and bobs and also at the same time demonstrate the benefits of 2D GNP as opposed to GO or other cheaper substitutes where performance may be mitigated by cost and/or simply shoving more in.

[superg1] 06/11/2016 11:33

In the innovate video they mentioned a recent report by Goldman sachs on advanced materials as the new revolution on the way.

I've been lucky enough to have read it as it's not widely available.

It includes Graphene, GNPs Go and so on and lists various companies including Haydale, AGM, Directa plus and Graphene nanochem all on the AIM. There is no mention at all of 2D-tech or Versarien.

Reading through the report I can see it looks well behind the current circs even though it produced just weeks ago.

It describes the method we mention like top down from graphite and bottom up.

On the VRS top down method it describes the ability to get to 100 layers and 10 layers. They call the potential immense but state it's at the embryonic stage. They list the US plastics industry as $370 billion.

This is where they have missed the trick in play.

They list the bottom up process (like AGM) as high cost, high purity, for value added applications, 5-10 years away.

Top down they list as low cost, low purity and mass production.

They say the application areas are huge.

Well in that bit they have missed what is going on as top down is already producing high quality high purity GNPs as in the VRS rns. As I keep saying doing so is very difficult to achieve as the process to get GNPs can be highly destructive.

They talk of it waiting for the "killer ap" which I take to mean an identified commercial use facilitated by bulk low cost high quality GNPs. They mention costs and bulk capability as an issue at the moment, but see exponential growth once it gets going.

But then they go on about prices it would need to replace carbon black in certain products and mention carbon black as 25% of weight in some products whereas GNPs would be 1-2%.

What they fail to consider there is the transformational performance changes that carbon black does not achieve. Also it seems 1-2% is too much going by the comments in the VRS video and it may well be .1%. Hopefully the details of optimum percentages will be known on Wednesday.

Here is what I see as the problem for them to comment and it's an issue I go on about having hunted around for some time and that's why I want to ask questions on the topic.

Goldman mention the Tennis racquet which will be head and 'claims' of performance improvement, they are obviously wary of the claims as it's not quantified.

Then they mention carbon fibre by Haydale and say It's said to enhance carbon fibre. Again there are no details about performance. No one anywhere has really said here you go verified performance independent/expert testing.

Verifiable data of performance enhancement is the missing key in the industry as a whole. If it's true they say it could be a game changer.

So there you go the obvious bits missing are data and that's what I hope to hear about since the completion of the VRS/NGI carbon fibre project conclusion IF they release the details.

So to me that news re the NGI could be significant if they now say what has been achieved and that performance is on a scale material to the industry.

[superg1] 05/11/2016 19:02

2020

I've done quite a bit of reading and listened to what some said in those innovate speeches.

One huge problem for new tech and new companies is the dinosaur approach. Near all big companies stay in "If it ain't broke don't fix it mode" hence disruptive technology finds it hard to penetrate the industry. The big guns don't like change.

The innovate lot also said it's for that reason small companies can make breakthroughs as the big companies get lazy in seeking out new technology. It's often said on bios that the big companies are happy for the small companies to waste millions hunting for new approaches and they can then just pick off those that actually develop into something.

In the aerospace auto sector there is a huge amount of talk and drive for going lighter and the only way to do that is advanced materials. The driving factor is emmisions with 2020 being a date to hit certain levels. On that side the emission via engine management and exhausts have run their course, there is very little room left (ask Audi and plenty of others). The route that is behind is weight, if they make vehicles lighter fuel use drops and it helps hit the emissions rules.

So on that point there is a big drive on changing metal parts for composites and obviously that may well be good timing with the enhanced composites appearing with in their strength increases and other beneficial properties. It should transform the industry. As GNPs RGO and Go can be introduced to just about every man made product it's an astronomical market.

[superg1] 05/11/2016 18:48

Shavian

Thankfully this isn't share loaded with PIs geared it has been ignored and left alone for many months. Aspects like the oil side hitting the Carbide products has already run it's course with a substantial drop to a level I hear of 10% for normal action on that side. Not all products go to the oil business of course.

Total Carbide has been running for something like 50 years or more so they are still running after all the ups and downs. I see Cryoma has been around 14 years so must have done ok in the 2009 crash.

There are a few flyer shares about so there could be some carnage for PIs in those as in that scenario they would get hit badly in theory and there will be substantial gearing in play.

However the market is always very good at creating the problem itself by scaring everyone to death. I did note oil never hit the $10 pb they were all talking about. If it did I'd have had a penthouse suite long on the oil price.

[shavian] 05/11/2016 18:07

SG And TP: keep up these great posts please! In terms of sheds, I now have two, but of modest proportions. It looks like a turbulent week coming up with events across the pond possibly causing an upheaval in the markets, which may well overwhelm the news coming out from the Cryoma open day. Moreover, if these is a general sell-off, VRS may not be immune on Weds/Thurs. if we get a decent dip I'll be inclined to become known as "Three-Sheds Shavian". Holding back from accumulating may soon be seen as a wasted opportunity! GLA

[superg1] 05/11/2016 14:00

I think the AGM fells should dig deeper

I note the news says the deal is with Century Composites Ltd. Bits on the web suggest they have a turnover of about £1 mill.

That rns could new could be just peanuts in revenue and nothing more than hype.

I'll look into it myself a bit deeper as accounts are available for £4.99.

Now I'm all for investing in anything in the sector that looks like a runner so it's not a specific dig at AGM just a very furrowed brow about their claims and progress.

For now to me AGM is one in fundamental terms to avoid. In terms of the share price flying it could be highly likely given the way they push out news with a tight shares situation.

[superg1] 05/11/2016 13:43

Fishing rods AGM

I looked up the Mackenzie FX1 which is already on the market with CNTs (graphene). They say the Graphene is in the resin that's added.

In reality it's only going to be a few grams of resin then possibly 0.1 % of that being the Graphene. So it's possibly to be small fractions of a gram per rod

I see their rod is just short of £1000 pounds.

So high costs GNPs at £1000 per gram are viable in such markets but in truth produce little revenue.

Then if someone can supply such GNPs at the fraction of the costs it makes any high cost producer unviable.

So I think that's why AGM are in fishing rods, it's viable on theor production rate and costs are not prohibitive in such an elite market.

In terms of overall revenue I imagine it's very poor. In terms of suggesting it opens doors then imo only to the high costs elite products.

[the prophet] 05/11/2016 13:39

Thanks SG, some very good points.
A lot of questions for VRS on Wednesday, hope there is time to fit it all in. 2 hrs including a tour of the facilities sounds on the tight side.