Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[ellissj] 03/2/2019 19:18

Indeed divers. Neill dashed to spain to meet with gnano - then did a deal and said the lab results were at leading edge of next gen battery tech. The gnano target firms mentioned in the id pdf are among top notch supercaps sector i see. Maxwell. Eaton. Nippon, etc. And 'serious large japanese/usa nda in place for testing.' (Not necessarily gnano related) but very interesting ! Steve hodge and roberto out in china last week. Re potential value of chinese/gnano jv for example. Dare to dream ! Aimo. Best ellis

[diversification] 03/2/2019 18:55

Thanks Elliss, I remember a while back that VRS sent a batch of graphene to China, a battery manufacturer. I wonder if this was related to the ‘graphene king’ tech.

One thing we know is our new battery division is set to compliment any strategic alliance. I wonder what value we can attribute to this?

[ellissj] 03/2/2019 18:38

Great post and research divers. Having spent money to develop their own range of 3D graphenes/products, tunghsu are experienced enough to understand not only that vrs 2D graphene/products could take their game further along, but also to know the 'true value' of these 2D materials. Logically, any deals/proposals are likely to be realistically valued to vrs satisfaction, and not least because they are but one iron in a large fire. I also wonder where we are with jinjan too. Optimistic here; my feeling is the tunghsu geic play has changed the game again. Aimo. Best ellis

[mikebrenner] 03/2/2019 18:20

Maisto to be clear the 5-10% was a comment on the long term margins of materials business ... short term graphene powders and inks will have very high gross profit margins whilst VRS make hay with limited competition but they will only go one way. Hence why VRS already light years ahead of others with progress they have made understanding how to improve manufacturing at scale process to max margins and volume, building out graphene supply chains and within that creating IP they can further monetise at much higher margins notably in batteries with gnanonat and polygrene. The other piece in margins is the brand royalty fee which will be small % of profit to begin with but over time will build a lot of value / higher % of profit.

[woodpeckers] 03/2/2019 17:54

maisto, you are completely right regarding Neill's comments about value adding by selling products containing Nanene rather just the basic material itself. He has mentioned in a couple of podcasts too that due to his engineering background he is keen to produce end products that can be easily used, more satisfying and more cash generative.

I don't think there is any doubt that we are ahead of the game...all of the collaborators have said as much and the government backing also spells this out. However, just for balance, when Neill was asked at The GEIC what keeps him awake at night, his immediate response was the need to be speedy (or words to that effect) in order to retain our first mover advantage. He went on to say that this excites rather than scares him as do the number and size of the opportunities, but nevertheless, it suggested to me that there could be others not as far as we may think behind us...

My thoughts when he said this were also that it's great that he/the team aren't getting complacent which I think would be foolhardy but possibly easily done in the circumstances and secondly, what a competitive CEO we have... the future market will be huge but Neill obviously isn't going to settle for second place!

[diversification] 03/2/2019 17:35

Understanding the scale of Tunghsu and it’s potential

The extent of the relationship:


-- To discuss mutual strategic investments for graphene-based projects, the forms of which will be agreed in future discussions. It is envisaged that Tunghsu will provide financial support as well as strategic support and in return Versarien will provide the required intellectual property to enable the industrialisation of graphene-based projects; and

-- Focus technical collaboration on projects closely related to both parties' current areas of activity, such as high quality graphene manufacturing, photoelectric display materials, new energy vehicles, energy storage technologies, LED lighting systems, graphene thermal management materials, and flexible batteries. (MOU, 07.11.18)

Our collaboration with Tungshu is progressing with a number of projects identified. These include incorporating graphene ink in consumer heating systems, incorporating Gnanomat's technology into Tungshu's battery products and using graphene insole sensors in Tungshu's smart wearables. (Interim results 06.12.18)

Whilst I can find little on the wearables, the battery, automotive, lighting, heating route to market is clear for all to see:

Promote Graphene Product Application

After the launch of “Graphene King”, the company launched graphene electric heater, graphene LED “Super Lights”, forming the layout of three series of application products containing the graphene-based Li-ion battery, graphene lighting, and graphene electric heating.

“Super Lights” has covered Beijing Tongzhou, Hebei Tangshan, Heilongjiang Harbin, and other 20 cities. In addition, the company acquired the first overseas order worth 160 million yuan.

(hxxp://www.dong-xu.com/e_com/index.aspx?nodeid=101&page=ContentPage&contentid=3256)


On September 24, 2017, Tunghsu, the leading enterprise of graphene application, releases the latest graphene LED lights with the unique graphene thermal management material, called "Super Light", including graphene LED road lamps, graphene car lights, graphene industrial luminaires, and graphene tunnel lamps.

(hxxp://www.dong-xu.com/e_com/index.aspx?nodeid=101&page=ContentPage&contentid=3019)


Last July, Tunghsu promoted the world’s first graphene-based Li-ion battery product, “Graphene King”. It is believed that this product can be charged to 4800mAh in 15 minutes and can work under -30~80℃ environment with more than 3500 times cycle life.
    Tunghsu has planned to invest 1.65 billion yuan for the graphene-based Li-ion battery project in Taizhou. This project now had completed the land acquisition and was registered. Additionally, Tunghsu had successfully developed the graphene-based LED light, the graphene-based electrothermal membrane, and other graphene-based products. They all had achieved the breakthrough of industrialization in transforming heating from coal to heating from electricity, intelligent cities, power battery, and other fields.
    Besides graphene industry, in 2015, Tunghsu bought Baoan Hongji Real194;Estate Group and changed its name into Tunghsu Azure (000040.SZ). This became the platform for the new energy industry for Li Zhaoting.
    Last October, Tunghsu Group bought Challenge (002486.SZ) and it is the third listed company of Tunghsu Group. In the future, Challenge will be the platform for the ecological health industry.
    In addition to the two acquisitions, Tunghsu launched the purchase of Shanghai Sunlong Bus. Li Zhaoting hoped to build a closed industrial chain loop from graphene materials, to graphene coating lithium iron phosphate cathode materials, to the graphene-based Li-ion battery, and to new energy cars.

(hxxp://www.dong-xu.com/e_com/index.aspx?nodeid=101&page=ContentPage&contentid=2996)

To be involved in a company as large as Tunghsu which has appeared from other articles to have struggled to source the mass production of graphene in sustainable, large quantities. This MOU and what I believe to be a pending announcement will enable VRS to build a long term sustainable entry into China, one of the most exciting graphene markets worldwide. To think we have a number of additional opportunities to go at in addition to Tunghsu is mind blowing. Overal, VRS are a very good fit and this is only the beginning. With a revenue generating partnership to come, I can’t wait to see how the funding will be structured with it envisaged to involve the support of Tunghsu who have historically taken positions in other Graphene companies it has been involved with.

[ellissj] 03/2/2019 16:52

Indeed, it's the added value that creates bigger margins. Hopefully vrs is well placed to be the wta (winner takes all) company in the emerging 2D materials industry. Certainly, the scope of the worldwide interest/engagement being generated marks vrs out from the rest. Aimo. Best ellis

[aintree77] 03/2/2019 16:49

Maisto - thanks for reminding us all about Neill’s GEIC talk regarding the importance of developing new products containing Nanene, with so much happening it’s easy to lose track on how advanced VRS are when it comes to commercialising 2D materials, it would seem we are way ahead of any competition and that’s why I continue to invest and sleep easy, thanks again.

[maisto] 03/2/2019 15:46

Thanks for the research and the post, Myrl. Always interesting to hear people's thoughts on this subject.

My takeaway from the GEIC was though, that the price of graphene, or in our case Nanene, is not 'that' important. Obviously it's great to see, as we expect, that the superior quality of graphene is a lot more expensive compared to other types. However, during his presentation, Neill said the real game changer is the next step, ie adding graphene into polymers and creating products like Polygrene. Admittedly, I am not very good with the technical terminology so Mike Brenner et al, please do correct any mistakes I might be making here with regards to usage of the words 'polymers' etc. But the bottom line is, Neill said 'you can only make 10% profit out of raw material sales', which graphene is one. When you turn that into another product though, ie when the know-how added with another step of processing comes into play, then the profit margins increase significantly. And that’s what VRS are playing at.

In short, it's useful for us to have a rough idea of the price for graphene but, as surprising as it may be to some, my understanding is that, that is not where VRS will be making the 'real' money.

[festario] 03/2/2019 15:29

Some excellent posts, very informative and I'd simply like to add.... GET THAT STOCK MARKET OPEN!!

[superg1] 03/2/2019 12:32

Directa Plus

Take a look at G+ very little of it if any is graphene. They are more towards the graphite platelet area of the market.

[superg1] 03/2/2019 12:26

Nice to see some good posts. That's what discipline does when you ignore those out to cause as much trouble as they can.

Mryl

That sums it nicely what we have been trying to point out for some time. Many will say they can do tonnes of graphene but in reality the quality graphene can form a fraction of the bulk material and you have to have the knowhow to separate it out from the rest.

EG when back when Talga was being pushed everywhere (usual suspects) I did point out their range graph and suggested a little of it would be what we know as graphene. In fact Warwick Grigor, now first graphene, was piling money into Talga and raving about it in his normal ultra hype way.

However it didn't take long before they realised few layer only formed a tiny fraction of Talga's claims.

So hopefully your posts will show why the experts keep saying bulk production is an issue when hundreds of producers worldwide claim to be producing it in the tens and hundreds of tonnes.

[hattie1] 03/2/2019 10:04

Wonder if our Vrs team met up with CTCE one of our other MOU Partners whilst in China 🇨🇳 so many irons in the fire ..

[spike_1] 03/2/2019 09:33

And thank you DAFAD, also very useful ;0)

[shavian] 03/2/2019 09:06

Thanks Mryl, good background research. May or may not be close to the mark, but it all helps to paint in some of the background to the landscape in which we are all groping around blindly !

[dafad] 03/2/2019 09:05

Good morning guys,i found this article on a different stock but it is very interesting as it content may apply to deals Vrs have signed

Link to original article




Research- A Blast from the Past

Today 00:16

I have had an interest in this company since I was I my 50's, I'm now 69. I used to post on another board but like many here no longer do so. Here's one post I came across from Forbes Magazine

Aug 30th 2016
In China, Treat A Memorandum Of Understanding Like A Binding Contract
Dan Harris , CONTRIBUTOR
I write about the legal side of doing business in Asia.
The China lawyers at my firm often get contacted by Australian, British, Canadian or U.S. companies requesting we draft a contract based on a ?just signed? Memorandum of Understanding with a Chinese company. And just about every time, we have to tell these companies that the ?memorandum of understanding? they just signed with the Chinese company likely constitutes a binding contract under Chinese law and is almost certainly viewed that way by their Chinese counterparts.
In common law countries like Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States, MOUs typically mean little. Only the signed final contract really counts. This is not typically true in civil law countries like China which hold to a much stronger concept of good faith negotiation. Under that concept, it is not acceptable to simply walk away from an MOU if that would constitute ?bad faith.? Since the traditions are so different, you can see where conflicts may arise.
What is bad faith under Chinese law? The standard example is signing an MOU with one Chinese company and then entering into a deal with another Chinese company. Under the common law, the party cut out under this scenario usually has no claim. Under Chinese law, the party cut out has a claim under the bad faith doctrine.
When one of our China attorneys is asked to draft a contract based on a signed MOU, we usually suggest our clients first alert their Chinese counter-parties of this plan. The Chinese counter-party usually responds by insisting that there is no need for another contract. Our clients signed the MOU thinking it was nothing and planned to come back and turn it over to their attorneys later to draft the final agreement. On the other side, the Chinese company signed it thinking that it embodied the deal.
The Chinese party will usually view insisting on drafting a new contract to replace the MOU as having acted dishonestly. Now you have a situation where what could have been a good relationship starts off poorly?or fails to start at all. If we go ahead and draft for our client a contract that differs at all from the MOU, or even just from how the Chinese party views the MOU, more problems arise.
Foreign companies doing business with Chinese companies often need to sign an MOU to keep their China deals moving along, but in doing so, it is important that they be sure not to allow what they sign to take them beyond where they want to go in terms of the deal. When dealing with China, it is important you treat an MOU with a Chinese company just as you would a binding contract.
In other words, call your lawyer before you sign one, not after

[grabster] 03/2/2019 08:35

Thanks for doing the arithmatic mryl. I haven't studied the whole ACS site, but in offering a comprehensive catalogue of nanomaterial products, ACS don't appear to identify which items are produced by themselves and which ones come from whoever else. (There's no reason why they should on the public pages). Nor any indication of what their customers think of the products. Are they merely supplying whatever they find, from a variety of producers, to whoever will try it, on the basis that even one-off unrepeated orders are worth having at a time when so many (thousands) are interested in trialling? In which case is their pricing structure merely a speculative one which will be frequently amended? In which case, based on feedback from their customers, they will over time gradually eliminate the poorer sources On their pages explaining what graphene and other products are, they do seem to hedge with lots of "should", "could", "might", etc.

I'm not rubbishing them (I daresay others might instantly do that) but am a tad sceptical of what they are actually achieving rather than aiming at. ;-)

[ellissj] 02/2/2019 21:25

Indeed. China/usa brewing. Korea bubbling in the background. Matt in japan this week stoking the fire. India too. Geic getting going - hopper opportunities. 30 announced Collabs in play. Some more nda per id day. Product testing underway. 5 firms targeted for early orders. It will all come to us in it's own way, in it's own time :) Aimo. Best ellis

[aintree77] 02/2/2019 21:05

The nomad upgrade is yet another positive piece of this unique jigsaw, its confirmation that a transformational announcement is nearing completion and heading our way. I’m looking forward to more news and announcements and enjoying the ride, the share price will take care of its self.

[woodpeckers] 02/2/2019 20:44

Strange, I don't see 'ifs and buts' only 'whens', hence a little patience is really all that is needed...and following the talk at the GEIC I'm more than happy that the company really do have a strategy,... 'amazing' as Neill would say!

[1teepee] 02/2/2019 20:36

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OHF2xDrq8dYThis explains why Vrs are in the background and not shouting out loud about themselves.Bloody good I say

[festario] 02/2/2019 20:32

2018 was the Year of the Collaboration.2019 is hopefully the Year of the Cashflow.

[meganxmas] 02/2/2019 20:26

Ha ha ... well you know is all relative ... think might double this year but in longer term 3 to 10 years am hoping for a multi bn pound company. Am following as closely as can what is going on but there are always lots of its and buts along the path ... it is a funny old world. In the meantime the team appear to be ticking all the right boxes and are rightly focused on 5 big early wins. AECOM is the obvious immediate biggie as well as Asia and aerospace.