Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[superg1] 25/7/2017 09:59

From the Nanene website

Many companies are looking to Graphene enhanced batteries to give the extra energy density they require to power their devices for longer, and to offer faster charging when required. 2-DTech, along with our collaboration partners Warwick Manufacturing Group, have successfully incorporated Nanene into a working supercapacitor system. On the basis of this initial success, we are keen to explore further projects in this field.

[superg1] 25/7/2017 09:43

Hopefully if the Ceo is reading the thread he can confirm points vis twitter.

EG scale up proven as that was a topic last week re the stock exchange visit.

[superg1] 25/7/2017 09:40

Anley

It's not all about batteries it's about 1000's of products.

But on that topic VRS have it on the list as tier 2 or 3 I think. The collaboration with WMG covers batteries and they already had success with graphene supercapacitors as in the Nanene site.

On Cambridge day there was a battery room which involves WMG. Button batteries were in there which I think they said were graphene silicon batteries.

That's why I advise folk to visit events. All the answes to recent questions on here have been explained to investors. Many at those events have no idea what ADVFN is. They don't engage in or read such forums.

[superg1] 25/7/2017 09:21

The question was "who knows" so I have answered saying I know.

Been there, done that, watched it happening and asked the questions.

I don't invest heavily unless I know answers first.

[superg1] 25/7/2017 09:18

Sorry Vas it was Astral I'm on a phone trying to type.

It was in answer to this and I spoke to the relevant guys on that topic within the last 2 weeks.

"VRS say the tech is scalable but as they are now producing in the gramme quantities then who knows what problems may be encountered on dramatic scaling up. That may well be a nice problem to have later on, but we don't know how truly scalable the process is beyond it is scalable at the sort of minimal levels they are currently operating at."


On Cambridge day it was quoted that the tech had already been tested to ensure it works. In any case it's off the shelf machinery for such tasks and scale up is simply larger volume machines. It's the know how of VRS that gets the high quality needed. The larger machines have higher sheer forces available.

I'll stick with my 250kg to 500kg for the first mentioned scale up and costs are not a lot.

EG for a few million I suspect they could produce tonnes per year.

That's why I invested, quality graphene proven to work and can be scaled up cost effectively. In theory to any amount.

It's in the original news of the breakthrough re cost viable scalability.

All I have done is questions all aspects which got to the point of seeing production and speaking to staff.

On here I share that but advise all to do their own research.

[vasilis] 25/7/2017 08:56

SG

Can you please clarify in your last post which question you are referring to and by whom it was asked on this BB as you have addressed a response to me. Your answer is very encouraging but I would like to be sure which question was being addressed and by whom it was asked. Thanks as always.

[superg1] 25/7/2017 08:42

Been off air.

Scaling up

I don't get your point Ritchie the scaling up is simply graphene not components.

Vas

I've asked that question and they have already confirmed it works. On top of the the next module up has higher sheer forces so there are less cycles.

On the initial process of GNPs I have a the scale up being 250kg to 500kg per year and that isn't 24 hrs. With higher options per unit avaliable.

So on modules or larger units tonnes can be produced.

The topic has been covered before. As said I have seen production in process and have spoken to production staff directly.

[luckyorange] 24/7/2017 18:58

He was there (just checking) and a very select little meeting it was too! Play the video clip.

'So what else did I learn?
Scale-up businesses are defined as growing by an average of 20% a year.
The attendees today told me they are also twice as productive as other businesses.
A priority of mine is understanding more about how we measure public sector productivity so we can improve more lives by delivering world-class public services, and ensure maximum value for the taxpayers’ pound. There were great examples today from how these young, fast-moving companies operate so efficiently.'

[luckyorange] 24/7/2017 18:12

I would expect it to be on the longer term list anley. For the moment they are focusing on ink and additives.

Everything I read about batteries tells me that a breakthrough has not been made at present and they don't know what will work. Does your post relate to this?

'The Government has announced a £246 million investment in battery technology to “establish the UK as world leader” in the sector.
The Faraday Challenge was announced today by business and energy secretary Greg Clark. The quarter-of-a-billion-pound investment will fund research, innovation and up-scaling of new battery technology “to ensure the UK builds on its strengths and leads the world in the design, development and manufacture”. Potential new technologies could include advances with lithium batteries, or approaches with new wonder-materials like graphene.

Ministers hope the challenge, including a virtual £45 million “Battery Institute” to make new technology cheaper and more accessible, will help the country meet emissions targets. The Government aims to cut 80% of carbon emissions by 2050, a key national target to help restrict a global temperature increase to only 2°C.

The advanced technologies will eventually power cars, aircraft, consumer electronics and will store electricity from the grid. “The work that we do through the Faraday Challenge will – quite literally – power the automotive and energy revolution where, already, the UK is leading the world,” said Clark.

The four-year challenge will involve a programme of competitions covering three areas: research, innovation and scale-up. The Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council will lead the Battery Institute, supporting research into new materials, technologies and manufacturing processes. The most promising work will move closer to market through further collaborative research and development competitions, led by Innovate UK. The Advanced Propulsion Centre will then decide on the best proposition for a new national manufacturing facility.

Dr Jenifer Baxter, head of energy and environment at IMechE, welcomed today’s Government and Ofgem report on smart power. However, research must consider other storage methods alongside batteries, she said.

“The role of batteries in electricity storage is still emerging and it is important that research and development explore whether the materials used in batteries, from extraction to disposal, are sustainable and therefore the best solution for electricity storage,” she said. “It may be that other storage mediums such as gas, compressed air energy storage and water provide a more suitable and sustainable long-term solution.”

The Faraday Challenge will generate jobs and grow the UK’s low-carbon economy, said Innovate UK chief executive Ruth McKernan. “By any scale, the Faraday Challenge is a game changing investment in the UK and will make people around the globe take notice of what the UK is doing in terms of battery development for the automotive sector,” she said. “The competitions opening this week present huge opportunities for UK businesses.”

[richie32] 24/7/2017 16:21

Scaling up? How long's a piece of string?

Scaling up for millions of components for mobile phones from scratch may present big problems, but scaling up for a modest amount of components in space satellites for example (where cost versus weight saving may be a good £equation), may be more do-able.

I would have thought this kind of staging of the scaling-up would be a more likely scenario

[phoenixs] 24/7/2017 16:07

VRS are talking to many companies about using graphene in their products. The potential for graphene is huge and batteries are just one of the areas in which graphene may be used in the future.

[anley] 24/7/2017 14:58

Its now about batteries and is VRS still looking at this?

[luckyorange] 24/7/2017 11:38

I think you are a little impatient john henry :-). The seeds have been sown, the word is out there, the government want it to succeed and there are numerous applications , let's wait and see what VRS have to say about it in their next update.

[john henry] 24/7/2017 11:00

I think investors needed to focus on the company actually signing a contract before taking about scaling up. At this rate the company may never need to scale up.

[phoenixs] 24/7/2017 10:17

The scaling up of production should not be a problem. At the Cambridge investors day NR said that they could do it and it was only a matter of orders.

[rogerbridge] 23/7/2017 17:18

Thanks Vas.

[astralvision] 22/7/2017 17:11

VRS say the tech is scalable but as they are now producing in the gramme quantities then who knows what problems may be encountered on dramatic scaling up. That may well be a nice problem to have later on, but we don't know how truly scalable the process is beyond it is scalable at the sort of minimal levels they are currently operating at. There is hardly a process known to man that hasn't experienced problems on scaling up, NR as an engineer knows this. Sure, problems can be overcome, but don't take it as a given that VRS can scale up problem free, beyond the micro quantities they currently do. I may be mistaken, and it may well be nothing to do with NR, but didn't Hardide have problems scaling up (one of NR's previous jobs), just as an example of many to choose from.

In the meantime VRS need to demonstrate they have a home for the small production/high cost graphene they can currently produce. Scaling up production could well bring the cost down and open up new applications, if VRS don't do this (soon-ish) someone else surely will.

[superg1] 22/7/2017 14:18

JH

Yes it is too expensive for many commercial appications but not all.

But then the price is determined by supply ability and what price some are willing to spend at the research end.

It can be bought for $2 per gram but that graphene doesn't work.

The VRS tech is scalable which takes opex down to viable levels. That's where doing the extra research helps. That's where VRS are a threat to others that may have high costs.

That said Apple were talking of using graphene in a patent which sounded like the electrical side charge ports. In that case very small quantities of graphene would be needed but in millions of devices.

Shavian

Talking of sound as you may know a number of big names are looking at graphene enhanced speakers.

[john henry] 22/7/2017 13:53

At present Graphene is simply to dam expensive to be considered commercial. Price per kilo needs to fall dramatically to become mainstream, as technology moves forward over time Graphene will seen in most products. 5-10 years,

[vasilis] 22/7/2017 13:44

Roger

I did buy into IQE some time after the 2008 financial debacle but sold some years later when the price first drove up to around 50p before descending again.

As you know there seems to be a lot of work going on to see if a doped silicon based chip can be replaced in some way by a graphene based alternative, but I agree with SG that it all looks a bit futuristic at the moment. But as has been shown many times in the past regarding scientific breakthroughs, what seems not possible today can become the 'norm' tomorrow - so I for one would not pooh-pooh the potential of graphene to disrupt the semiconductor industry at some point in the future. But how it does so is also another question not yet answered.

I have though tried to point out (post 4952)that there are other aspects to consider as well as regards semiconductors such as the wiring connections where graphene could lower resistance and thereby reduce heat generated. And post 4958 in respect of a 'graphene copier' to my mind just shows the kind of lateral 'out of the box' thinking going on at MIT and elsewhere with graphene.

So whilst I also agree that it looks odds on that graphene will no doubt establish itself first in composite materials that SG has highlighted in a number of postings, I'm just trying to look further ahead to see what may lie in the semiconductor industry which I personally see as potentially ripe for major innovation. Just think of all the changes as we moved in the past from valves ( I still swear though that valves produced a much 'warmer' sound in amps such as my dear old Vox AC30), to transistor technology that has led to a whole generation of changes in so many things we now take for granted. And now I think that we have started on another path that looks like it will lead us inexorably to quantum based machines - so I'm expecting a lot of innovation over the next 10-20 years to give us a whole new generation of devices. So whilst I think that graphene has a significant role to play in today's composites, I also believe that it has a major role to play in the future in ways that are only now being established in laboratories around the world. But whether you look at graphene over just 1 or 2 years or for a much longer period of time, like others I think that VRS is currently in the right place at the right time with the right offerings.

[rogerbridge] 22/7/2017 09:20

Cheers SG.

[superg1] 22/7/2017 08:04

Roger

I'm not sure which graphene is used in semi-conductors. I switched off re those as they are so far down the chain when it comes to graphene.

If it's the CVD single layer type graphene then that is very expensive to make and highly difficult. While single layer CVD can be made it's very hard to get a perfect sheet without breaks in the hexagonal lattice. In other words it's hard to make it detective free and expensive in any case.

News like this shows the interest but also how long it will take

'Although substantially more money will be spent on this endeavor before the goal of mass production will be finally realized, late Wednesday afternoon, IBM announced it is funding the next stage of research into graphene semiconductors, to the amount of $3bn over five years. Two years after having produced experimental transistors at the 9 nm scale using carbon nanotubes, IBM is focusing its new goal down to 7 nm by 2020.'

[luckyorange] 21/7/2017 18:35

I think shavian posted the link to this one and I had been reading it before looking at the bb. It answered your question roger i.e. it's all about cost /kilo at the moment.

'Estimates for the cost of production of graphene vary depending on the quality of the material from tens to thousands of dollars per kilogram, but it is still not competitive with state-of-the-art materials. For example, the very low cost of activated carbon currently used in supercapacitors (US$15 per kilogram) presents a difficult barrier to the entry of other materials.
"There is no doubt that graphene has changed the landscape of energy storage because of its outstanding electrochemical properties and unique combination of large surface area, high electronic conductivity and excellent mechanical properties," the authors conclude their review. "However, the full potential of energy-storage devices built from graphene has yet to be realized. Many challenges remain, particularly with regard to feasible techniques for the low-cost mass production of graphene with controlled microstructure and low residual oxygen content."


Read more: Graphene for batteries, supercapacitors and other energy storage

[rogerbridge] 21/7/2017 17:47

Vas,
I am quite keen on IQE, but decided to plump for VRS. I am a little confused over mixed messages and a comment about graphene that was apparently stated at the AGM.
I have taken part of a posting on the IQE BB along with information from the IQE end of year report.

"Once again and to disappoint graphene fans-it's a technology in stasis, the IQE CEO dismissed it as a competitive challenge at the AGM, IQE were working on it in the past in some high level research with high-end partners - NOT anymore."

I Know they were working with Cardiff University on a joint venture and the has been an investment of aroud £300 million of UK public funds in the South wales area. I believe EPSRC's compound semiconductor hub and alike.

Does this mean that grpahine has been dismissed for the use as a faster or semiconductor replacement, or just that they could not get it right?

Were you at the AGM?

I do relaise that there are more materials that may be useful as semiconductor replacements.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 13:58

Another issue on the same topic. So there are quite a few issues out there that we didn't know were issues as there was no fix just methods to cope with them.

Composite materials like carbon fibre are increasingly popular for the construction of aircraft, because these materials are very strong and lightweight at the same time. However, water ingress into the honeycomb structure of composite aircraft parts is dangerous and not always avoidable. Tiny cracks in the composite material might allow water to enter the structure. At high altitude, where the air is a lot cooler, this water will be turned into ice. This will cause the composite material to expand, making the honeycomb cell bonding weaker. If this process is repeated many times, the composite honeycomb structure becomes damaged, which might impact the airplane’s stability.