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[superg1] 21/7/2017 13:41

On the back of triggering the moisture uptake thoughts I had a hunt around on that topic and found a paper with Airbus doing such tests on carbon fibre.

The paper says carbon fibres do not suffer from water uptake but the resin does. Water saturation in the tests was .57%

On strength you can see the result of dry v slight saturation to as high as a 50% drop in strength.

So it seems not only would graphene increase the strength of carbon fibre via the resin it's also likely to reduce water uptake which affects weight and strength.

'The results revealed that no effect was measured in test coupons with fibres orientated in the direction of the load, regardless of equilibrium moisture content. For tensile strengths of coupons, with fibres orientated perpendicular to the axis of loading, the strength was seen to decrease linearly with increasing equilibrium moisture contents to a maximum of 50% strength reduction as compared to oven dry. In-plane shear strength and modulus both saw a decrease in strength with increasing equilibrium moisture content to a maximum 20% and 10% reduction respectively.'

hxxp://iccm-central.org/Proceedings/ICCM17proceedings/Themes/Industry/AEROSPACE%20APPLICATIONS/INT%20-%20AEROSPACE%20APPLICATIONS/IA2.14%20Ryan.pdf

[superg1] 21/7/2017 13:05

On the carbon fibre point it's here in the recent Directors talk recent Q and A session

Q3:

You’ve mentioned that you’re receiving a significant number of enquiries from potential customers, what is likely to be the key to commercial adoption?


A3:

What we know is that there are a number of different things which are being wanted by our customers and the one that is most relevant at the moment, and the one we have the most test data about, actually is carbon fibre composite materials. The company itself has got some significant plans in that area, we now know that the stuff we’re manufacturing, when added to carbon fibre composites, is giving very very good results, in fact, that first product that was launched a couple of months ago was a carbon fibre product so we know that’s the one that is most advanced at the moment.

The full Q and A session is here

hxxp://www.directorstalkinterviews.com/versairen-plc-qa-ceo-neill-ricketts-final-results-year-ended-31-march-2017/412731428

[superg1] 21/7/2017 12:54

Vas

I believe the bulk of graphene related patents are to do with semi conductors.

With those ostrst of things they tend to be down the line and VRS on one open day presentation listed Tier1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and so on. The point being time estimated time to commercial uptake. Thus they have finger in many pies but what we talk about here and VRS are the near term Tier 1 bits.

I note the CEO has repeatedly stated that carbon fibre is at the front end on like uptake which has already happened of course in the case of McLaren which IS VRS graphene.

As we have said before McLaren obviously went to the UOM/NGI to get advice on graphene and the tip was obviously Nanene with it's already proven performance in such materials by the NGI.

[vasilis] 21/7/2017 12:50

SG

Thanks for that info - especially the hydrophilic properties of GO.

On the subject of graphene and semiconductors, I don't know if you've posted anything on this process which appeared in April's MIT News, partly making use of graphene's 'slippery' properties -



This bit says it all for me:-

“Now, exotic materials can be popular to use,” Kim says. “You don’t have to worry about the cost of the wafer. Let us give you the copy machine. You can grow your semiconductor device, peel it off, and reuse the wafer.”

I wonder how many times you can 'copy and peel' from one graphene 'copier'.

[festario] 21/7/2017 11:37

A little flurry of buying, sub 20p, one of them mine.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 11:31

On the flip side you can use graphene oxide to increase water uptake as GO is hydrophilic.

I think in the case of GO it can lose it's electrical conductivity so graphene can be adjusted depending on what you want it to do.

GO by the way is the method where they produce it using harsh chemicals known as the hummers method if anyone wants to look it up.

VRS do GO and RGO I understand, its a different process and facility to the Nanene production.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 11:28

Btw

If you search on water uptake of composites you will get many hits and various science papers on the topic.

I just looked myself and the first one I opened talked of water uptake weakening the composite and degrading it. The nature of some materials in the composite they mention are hydrophilic meaning it will readily soak up/accept water.

Graphene is hydrophobic and repels water so in theory add it to a composite and you improve the water resistance, increase the life, maintain it's strength along with it potentially making it stronger and more elastic via the other properties of graphene.

It isn't a case of will graphene break through, it absolutely will and is and will do so on a massive scale imo.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 11:19

Vas

That's an example of limits reached with no answer therefore there is no fix until something new arrives.

Eg with graphene we talk about barrier properties for coatings which for me pre graphene wasn't a problem I knew that existed.

With paint and coating being 1000's or years old we assume all things are covered but as we are finding out water and gas penetrates many things we assume are impermeable.

In exchanges and chats about graphene I learned that some composites used for water have issues with water ingress, even boats where the water over time just passes through the composite which for me was a surprise. I hadn't even considered that was an issue with what I'd call a leak (a hole) but apparently it is the case.

So with graphene in composites it not only adds strength elasticity with thermal and electrical conductivity it also is a gas and water barrier. Hence we see the mention of water filters but also in composites it should in theory reduce water/gas ingress and egress.

Then it's not just that if you are talking weight saving then if you have composites that soak up water to a certain extent it adds to weight so you have a weight saving too.

So my point is graphene is adding a fix to problems that don't exist. The problems were previous unfixable and so the problem was the limit and therefore wasn't a problem just the accepted limit of technology.

Well now the limit has been breached on multiple fronts and industries that had hit a dead end now have a fix. So those sectors had been relatively dormant working with what they had but now they can move on, perhaps significantly.

[vasilis] 21/7/2017 10:42

Shavian

You've raised the issue of the potential disruptive effects of graphene in the semi-conductor industry both here and on the IQE BB so just a couple of thoughts from my side -

1 The semi-conductor industry is - and always has been so far - a cyclical industry driven by Moore's Law and its ability to enable new computing devices such as the iphone and all manor of apps to be born. It is therefore a much established industry, though innovation within it - as shown by companies such as IQE - continues at a pace. With graphene on the other hand we are still at the earliest stage of development where no-one really knows exactly how its impact will take root and develop in the commercial world. We all have our ideas and views but the story is 'yet to be written' so to speak. But I share your views as regards how as an investment in IQE has paid dividends for the patient and prescient folks who bought into the story early on. And I also hope that VRS does the same.

2 Whilst I think there is still mileage in silicon based chip technology until someone comes up with a viable alternative at the industrial level, there is another more urgent problem that seems to get overlooked and which graphene can address -

So whilst I'm quite sure that at some point silicon based chip development will be made obsolete as more complex devices will require ever more computing power, today it is the 'arteries' which seem to be needing urgent attention - and which graphene seems a logical solution to the identified problem.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 09:06

Btw

A bunch of F1 guys are looking at adding graphene some admit it some don't. Some have taken on graphene experts.

[superg1] 21/7/2017 09:05

A teaser there Lucky so I looked it up. That came form Jonathan Neale Mclaren racing CEO.

He also said

"This gives us the relationships with academic institutions, such as the National Graphene Institute and other universities," says Jonathan Neale, McLaren Racing CEO,

As I said the CEO does tell us things and I think that one was Cambridge day too where he said the original first decent sale was still live for further orders.

On the weight bit Dr Andrew D explained that. It was something like losing weight anywhere would allow then to drop it in low down which would create some gains.

As I watch F1 I have notched one small carbon fibre piece positioned on top and behind the driver (a bit like a small wing with a hole through it) moves around due to the air flow. I imagine stiffening of that would result in a gain.

I do know an expert air flow engineer but made the mistake of chatting about composite helicopters and the hockey stick rotar (reduce decibels). That meant I missed about 15 mins of the 2nd half the second half of a 6 nations game which is entirely unacceptable (possibly criminal) as is trying to digest a geeks explanation on airflow across surfaces.

[luckyorange] 21/7/2017 08:42

'useful not only as a hard-wearing material for the wrist, but one that will play a key role in motor racing as McLaren works to integrate it into its Grand Prix cars.'

Had plenty of time to integrate it lol, the Honda engine is just not performing and they may go for a Mercedes customer engine!

'For McLaren, just three years into its partnership with Honda, a move to Mercedes would come against the backdrop of the team having said several years ago that it believed it could never win the title with a customer engine.'

I wonder if the weight saving gains with graphene would make a difference?

[superg1] 21/7/2017 07:47

On small oil companies if you are in early and its gets the following (many do) they will fly.

The trouble is (If you can call it that) they fly to well. When they are flying the BB activity and number of investors increase rapidly which multiplies the original share price in no time.

So when looking at them its virtually impossible to when considering to buy if it has topped out.

They all do after such a rapid climb.

SOU had a great run and the higher it went the more were talking about it. Topped out in the 90's and now 50p with a sharpish dive from 80p

HUR too a lie from 10p up to about 65p then a sharp dip to 30p. I was tipped HUR at 10p had a good look, liked it but didn't buy any.

I won't mention the name of one small one as I knew too much on that one but its about 80 times less than when everyone was going mad for it and some out a lot of money into it.

So in the case of ANGs where is the top? I wouldn't like too guess but once it tops out which could be today or weeks/months away with large rises to come yet but at some point it will see a significant retrace Imo as they all do after such strong moves.

I did chuckle at one not oil or any commodity. A few of us were waiting for it to top out having started at 6p. It took off so we expected a retrace, 20p must be, no 30p, no 40p. It went 10 fold in the end within any retrace on that trip, then when topped out went all the way back to 6p. A bit different that one as I found out the strong moves were based on repeated false details being pushed out. So once the news that was never was didn't appear it slid all the way back down.

[shavian] 21/7/2017 07:43

An update on 'our' watch. Now cut along and buy one at Harrods!

[shavian] 21/7/2017 07:41

He was also talking to John McDonnell MP. That's what I call forward planning - just in case! ;0(

[luckyorange] 21/7/2017 07:35

Going back a few posts, why would NR be talking to the Chief Secretary of the Treasury and the Head of LSE? Certainly moving in high circles and the doors seem open to him to do that!?

DTI, Innovate, treasury, does the PM ring him for advice? ;-)

[shavian] 21/7/2017 07:25

Interesting graphic on the many uses of graphene:



4D self-healing all graphene batteries, printed with graphene ink? The mind boggles!

Read the full article:

[superg1] 20/7/2017 22:44

Shavian

I'd never say load up but have myself based on 3 years of watching VRS individuals should do their own DD.

That said I think graphene is going to be in 1000's of products. Goldman Sachs agree and list the various products over the years that became huge like plastics.

So for me it's a case of looking around for companies that may break through in graphene. It will be in so many products and so many different uses there will be room for many.

Considering the world lead is the NGI/UOM and Cambridge then as VRS have both as shareholders and staff in both Unis they are very well placed. On top of that they have viable tech and products potentially world leading.

So if VRS do make the big hreak then some will look back saying it was obvious who had a great position.

The team is great too. Invites from the DTI on world tech tours and this week down in London with the head of the AIM and CEO of the London stock exchange discussing expansion of VRS.

Seems frigging obvious to me but most have never heard of graphene. They'll find out what it is one day then watch what happens.

[shavian] 20/7/2017 22:21

Had a great day today with 32% gain in IQE and 20% gain in ANGS. Not saying this to brag, but to remind us all of the importance of loading up on a promising share while it's cheap.I had come into IQE before the 2008 crash at about 40p and endured its descent to about 18p. I nearly baled out but kept the faith out of loyalty to my local Cardiff firm and because of inspired technical posting by one Sweenoid (IQE's answer to SG1). I was persuaded to add a few in the 20s and eventually covered my costs over 5 years from the start when it staggered back to 40p. Suddenly everything Sweenoid had said began to come to fruition, and now IQE Is the world leader in photonics and wafers for VCSELs where they have an 80% global share and may soon be selected as a main supplier for the Apple iPhone8. Today's trading update took them from 84p to 112.5p. Today. Woosh.My sole point in saying this is to remind us to listen to our gurus and load up on VRS while its as "Cheap as Chips". I just wish I had bought even more IQE before it took off. VRS feels like IQE did as little as six months ago. Just topped up again!

[superg1] 20/7/2017 11:59

BTW

I thought "silly sods after the robots"

Quite nice aren't they I now have one :-)


Hang on a minute 3 grams estimate 2% hmm could be 1% or less. HD GNP or is it Nanane, I think HD, may be wrong.

So I have 0.03 to.06 grams of graphene in an ABS 3D printed stronger more conductive mini robot.

I haven't named him/her yet.

A game if you look at them from the top (It's a he now) you get a new face, one of a surprise. I assume that's from when he saw the NDA list which he gets to see and we don't.

[superg1] 20/7/2017 11:48

I did hear he was down the stock exchange or similar this week do those tweets confirm that with Xavier being the CEO of the stock exchange.

Great meeting @LSEplc with @johnmcdonnellMP talking growing quickly with Marcus Stuttard and Xavier Rolet

I keep saying he is well connected and well liked.

Can anyone else name some CEOs on Aims that keep popping up in various places be it at number 10 LSE, or on trip with the DTI, Innovate events and sometimes as a speaker at such events.

He even mentioned royalty at Cambridge day and he isn't joking on that either.

All worthless of course in terms of cash to the bottom line but they are all very good connections that take you down the road of that process to revenues.

After all the line is "it ain't what you know it's who you know"

[a_game] 20/7/2017 11:28

Notice Neill's tweets this morning? Great to see the gov supporting & backing VRS

[a_game] 20/7/2017 11:27

luckyorange - No, haven't dissected it?! Sitting nicely on my desk, reminding me to keep accumulating VRS 😉

[superg1] 20/7/2017 08:06

Yes Roger Lucky got me a peach there. I stopped looking at it after those first posts. What a con that is.

However it as a great demonstration of how some will try to screw investors on a new topic. The FCA stuck out a warning re potential boiler room scams on graphene.


On the rods having read so many papers now multilayer improves the flexibility but reduces the strength.

I'm quite happy now having read a few papers and discussed it with others that the elasticity gain comes from the movement in the layers and the weakness comes from those layers having more chance of a weak point weaker than the composite. After all graphene is created by separating those layers by force and by other means. So the the higher layers you have the more chance of weak points hence that seems to be the reason multi-layer actually weakens a composite but will improve elasticity and the conductivity side.

I just wonder with the rods if it's a similar case to the Head tennis racket. In that racket the concentration of graphene was around the throat of the racket not all the way through it. We know that as some scientists bought one and chopped it up to check where the graphene was.

As time goes on and graphene starts to appear in many products I suspect there will be a lot of gimmicks to come to that do not offer strength or and gains but simply create sales due to potential kudos of owning something with graphene in it.

I can imagine things like phone cases which would have poor performing graphene in them as there is no need for strength gains but typically if the case is a composite thermal dissipation would be increased.