Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[skylite] 19/5/2017 10:56

That's an interest view of Cheltenham racecourse Sg; one I'm quite familiar with at about 4pm.

[superg1] 19/5/2017 10:48

A nice video by the founder of graphene in simple terms. Quite an important point that he raises where 1000's of scientists have left their former studies to move to graphene such is their belief in it.

Worth a listen.



It was in 2012 but he is being proved right.

[superg1] 19/5/2017 08:39

Are you about Hastings?

Did you discuss or become aware of the 100,000 litre plan when you were there. perhaps the article will mention it.

[superg1] 19/5/2017 08:27

Ink

I'm getting excited about that all over again. I heard Ferrari declare that 100,000 litres could be done and he had their tech as the world lead.

That 100,000 litres has crossed over into a declaration by VRS in Berlin for the same number. That's 100 tonnes of ink. The presentation by the CEO to the audience was on the conductive inks.

There are various at Berlin including Google bullish about the gains and new products to come via such ink.

I'd be happy with 100 litres sold or blown away by 1 tonne. But 100 tonnes capability for a modest investment seems mind blowing.

If prof Ferrari is right and they are the world lead with 100% yields v 1% for some, those big names with Cambridge ink will surely see some convert to JVs, deals, collaborations etc. We know Nokia is company is looking at the Cambridge ink.

[jointer13] 19/5/2017 08:06

amazing... cant buy any...surprise surprise.

[superg1] 19/5/2017 07:46

Lucky

Seeing the Google name in Berlin I wondered what they were up to so had a look. They weren't listed under graphene.

They were going on about smart wearables etc and it wasn't until I looked deeper that they listed graphene as the answer to that desire.

I just tried to find it again got the wrong link and found more on them this time talking about strain sensors and bio sensors, printed electronics, all in Berlin and graphene again.

Clearly the answer to that is graphene inks.

VRS were in Berlin talking bayou their conductive inks.

Anyone at the Cambridge day heard professor Ferrari say that for a modest investment it could be scaled up to 100,000 litres per year. he also said some methods have a 1% yield v a 100% yield using their method.

100,000 litres logically is 100 tonnes of ink.

Perhaps more relevant VRS quoted that figure in Berlin as the plan. So VRS have the capability to take graphene ink to 100 tonnes per year if the demand is there on a modest investment.


That alone as an business IPO'd Aim arrival Imo would create substantial interest.

[luckyorange] 19/5/2017 07:27

Speaking of google.



Chinese scientists have started to manufacture graphene from corn, they announced at a press conference held at Heilongjiang University on Friday.

This breakthrough means that graphene could now be made more cheaply, greatly expanding the supply of the material which has until now remained relatively small, reports China's Global Times.

Previously, the main source of graphene was graphite.

There are plenty of strong claims made for the use of graphene in the bike industry but, to date, only Vittoria, Catlike and Dassi have graphene-linked products on the market.

Catlike uses graphene in its high-end Mixino helmet. Vittoria’s 2017 tyre range majors on the inclusion of graphene in its list of ingredients. Vittoria claims that adding a one-atom-thick layer of graphene allows its tyres to remain hard on the straights but soften during braking or cornering. The Graphene+ tyres are also longer-lasting and more puncture resistant, says the Italian company, and they dissipate heat more efficiently.



Graphene was first isolated at Manchester University, and the city of Manchester aims to capitalise on its connection with the National Graphene Institute which is based in a futuristic new building just off Oxford Road, one of Manchester’s key thoroughfares, and which is currently being dug up for the installation of protected cycleways.



Sporting goods companies were among the first to make graphene-enhanced products – aside from bike frames and tyres, there are graphene-enriched tennis rackets from Head.

Graphene has a tensile strength of 130 gigapascals (Gpa), and, on a molecular level, is claimed to be the strongest known material in the world, 2000 percent stronger the toughest carbon fibre (Toray T1000 has a tensile strength of 6.3 GPa) and nearly percent stronger than diamond.

While we’ll never see a full frame made from graphene, it’s likely we’ll see more wheels and wheel brake tracks using the material, specifically because of its heat-dissipation properties.

Graphene is also a superlative electrical conductor and could be used to in electronic drivetrains, power meters, computers, and lights.

Vittoria has been working with graphene for nearly six years, in association with Directa Plus, a graphene factory. Directa Plus supplies graphene to Vittoria as three-to-seven-atoms thick “nano-platelets”.

A Qurano wheel made with graphene, says Vittoria, has 50 percent more lateral stiffness, 10 percent better heat dissipation, 18 percent more impact strength and yet is 15 percent lighter. Vittoria is an investor in Directa Plu, which was founded in 2005 and is based in Italy.

China has invested £3m in the National Graphene Institute via a five-year research partnership with the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials.

[superg1] 19/5/2017 06:54

BTW

That's what Google presented in Berlin recently its not in some old buried patent.

Bit better still finally a comment on performance from a synthetic graphene producer.
I've been saying for some time that the lateral sizes of synthetic graphene look to be an issue for strength gain in composites.

Cambridge nano

Lateral size 300nm average range 150nm to 500nm. That will be over the heads of some but some companies don't list it as suitable for strength until it's multiple time the size of that.
.


They list it as suitable for ligth-weighting in aircraft.

But here is the killer line for their sales pitch.

Their claim is it's beats current resins when enhanced by their graphene by 10%.

Well the strong part of Carbon fibre is the fibres, the strength gain in resin doesn't transfer in full to the Carbon fibre meaning the Carbon fibre strength gain would be substantially less than 10%.

They also try to promote the naturally crumpling of the platelets as a good thing, but I just read a UOM paper suggesting the buckling of GNPs reduces their theoretical gains versus actual.

So as far as I'm concerned 10% strength gain in a resin is poor for the graphene market and probably attributed to the poor lateral size of the GNPs.

I have not yet found any synthetic GNPs to get near an average of 1um (1000nm) lateral size and that's not even the starting point for strength gains but some on lateral sizes.

They don't evidence the 10% gain they just state it in a 'pitch' and did so this month.

So Imo you can forget Cambridge nano graphene as GNPs for strength gain. That may be of use to the Haydale guys too to be aware of that detail. It's the first I've seen on synthetic graphene and the first evidence to back the theory that poor lateral sized have poor strength gain capability in composites.

There are much better performing options around as VRS and hurdle will confirm.

[superg1] 18/5/2017 21:44

And then just like right now you drop on Google who are going on about graphene sensors for all sorts of health care via wearable devices with the intention of global uptake. Anyone with conditions it updates your GP personal database and has alerts if things are not right. You won't even know there is something but the tech will.

Graphene will hit folks and in massive way, I've done my research and a huge amount of it. Time to get on and do your own. Some will sink, some will swim and some will rocket.

[phoenixs] 18/5/2017 21:44

Asstral, universities are brilliant at research and spending money. Notoriously bad at commercialising and making money. In VRS they have found a partner who will accomplish the latter

[astralvision] 18/5/2017 21:30

Some excellent posts and plenty of food for thought.I feel at current levels VRS looks a good buy.However, there are a few things that do cause me a slight concern, namely:1) the clamour for graphene sales. To a certain extent this is understandable. The house brokers forecasts for the year just finished was sales of £0.7m of graphene products. I don't think VRS will have done anything like this. I don't think that's a problem as such, but house brokers only repeat , more or less, what a company tells them. Ok, so VRS we're too optimistic. That's not a hanging offence but, all the same, I think investors should be excused when asking where the sales are.2) The amount of money/shares VRS paid Manchester and Cambridge Uni for their graphene spin outs seems very modest. Now all power to VRS for striking a good deal. But assuming Manc and Cambridge ain't stupid, then why would they sell something for buttons that is almost immediately worth millions? I hear the noises re synergy and NR's go get 'em attitude, but, all the same, it doesn't feel quite right. Perhaps these businesses need more development than is first apparent, perhaps it's the deal of the century.It's an exciting company with some potentially breakthrough products, but always worth looking at all aspects.

[superg1] 18/5/2017 21:11

Lucky

You can't help wonder about that Vox markets chart job and the city pump and dump crew that went silent. Is there to be some buying on the forecast support along with some pumping.

OR is there some VRS article sat with a well known media outlet where those in the know will load up pre release.

I'll watch for trends and see if they precede such articles if they appear.

[superg1] 18/5/2017 20:33

Cash and fudging options for the future.

First point CFO looking for break even at worst in 12 months. That would be a chug along view with out material blue sky activity.

Did anyone digest the XG interest and how they got funded. XG were an early mover.

Hanwah chemical corp a large South Korean company, they chipped in $3 mill.

Posco another South Korea monster $5.2 million.

Samsung No introduction needed huge. $3 mill

Dow (huge) $10 mill debt facility Dec 16.

Then there was Cabot who went for licence on their tech for $4 mill.

So the first 3 put in $11.2 mill, cabot on license $4 mill and now Dow on a debt $10 mill with conditions.

On top of that they got further investment of $18.5 mill.

Total

$27.7 mill in backing. $4 mill license, $10 mill debt facility. There may be more I haven't checked.

Anyone here other than the ones I know that went to the Cambridge event and looked at the NDA list ???

Are such companies interested in graphene? Yes they are and hell of a lot of them. They went they saw they backed XG and found its a dud.

South Korea is graphene mad, if there is a fix for viable graphene that works they will want it.

[superg1] 18/5/2017 20:14

This is my viewpoint.

I bought what to me is a sizeable amount my largest holding in any share ever. I'm doing so and knowing its illiquid I accept I can't buy and sell that amount without moving the price or the MMs screwing me about.

Now I know a few with similar size holdings and larger.

If you have number with 10k shares, 20k shares 50k and 100k shares it can soon soon add up if they are buying and selling in the peaks and troughs. there will be old holders glad to be at break even and will be selling, 10p and 15p fund raise folk chasing in and various options like that. The buyers arrive on news or volumes taking the share price up, they sell and hold off on a drift.

I know from many years that levels 2 can be a lie. I have over time tried to buy and sell shares well within the amount shares on the bid and offer but can't get a quote. As I understand it if they advertise that amount they are obliged to fill an order, but they don't.

My personal target is around £1 per share as a first point. It may or may not get there. However I know the AIM and if just one or two of those names we saw sign up with anything material it could rocket well beyond that without any sales to back it up as sentiment would spike significantly. When SPs fly in come the chasers and suddenly you have an audience seeing the big names, the web then expands. Interest gathers and new funds start to load up. Many funds have M/C restriction barriers where they simply can't invest if they wanted too. Once the barrier is broken it opens it up to new funds. It's not fantasy I've watched it happen on many shares, the logic of it defats me but that's the stock market.

Yes it is nice to see it going up but I'm not selling, down with the ship or up with the balloon. Wife well aware and fully in support she knows how hard I work to look for the snakes and ladders.

I really am not interested in the where are the sales, or why is the share price going up or down, why haven't they this and that.

The CFOs target is to get to break even in about 12 months, the current cash and plans in theory due to their comments goes well beyond that point. Its not a fantasy AAC makes money and carbide can soon get back to break even profit if not already. The drag will be the thermal acquisition (not copper foam) and the costs related to the graphene while they build up steam.

Results for 2016 will have factory move costs, factory fit out and acquisition costs, equipment and so on. They have already stated that.

I've watched AIM shares go to £400 mill M/C on nothing but a name or two and hype with not one penny of revenue. So if the graphene fever does bite and the names do appear a £100 mill market cap could be like coke can tumbling into the ditch as the juggernaut flies past.

The ingredients are there, they have the fantastic position of showing backing by both the main graphene Universities with access to equipment they couldn't possibly afford. They have proven product proven scalability proven low costs and proven performance. No one else I know in the industry has such a range.

They also have the not so small matter of copper foam which is why I looked at them in the first place. It appears to be the world leading heat sink on performance. Its in trials with over 130 customers including blue chips. One well know UK name just signed and NDA on that.

Underlying business unconnected could potentially knock it out of the park but for that you have to dig.

So next spring/summer I would hope folk here would be talking about sales of some type achieved on the blue sky side. But then I keep saying some things are live so it could be next week or next month.

[luckyorange] 18/5/2017 20:12

I did wonder if the 100k sell this morning was a bid to shake the price down RED, if so they bottled out this afty having made £100, after hours mm buy of 25k shares, should go up tomorrow but we will see!

[redchef] 18/5/2017 19:54

I'm quite happy for all these twitchy small time investors to leave the stock. Their buying and selling has a disproportionate effect on the price. Anything under 20k is less than a £5000 investment, many are sub £1000 which is ridiculous considering dealing costs. I notice that 20p has triggered quite a few volume purchases of 50k and even 100k as the serious investors having done their research get on board. I can't see them being in a hurry to sell so once the faint hearted have been shaken out it should be a steady surge upwards based on availability.

[phoenixs] 18/5/2017 18:41

When I began to invest in VRS I put a value of 10-12p per share on the underlying business without the graphene/Nanene. The 8p per share for the graphene/nanene imo is ridiculously cheap/undervalued. It is possible that the carbide business alone could be worth that if they meet their target of break even by the end of the year. There is no other graphene play as undervalued as this.

[rogerbridge] 18/5/2017 17:52

I tried but no luck. See what happens tomorrow.

[cyberbub] 18/5/2017 17:37

Let's hope for a bounce soon. £25M for what Versarien have seems pretty cheap to me.

[tim3416] 18/5/2017 17:33

Seems so Cyber. Couldn't get a sniff online with HL in last 15 mins

[cyberbub] 18/5/2017 17:12

Looks like a few buyers had been waiting for 20p..

[superg1] 18/5/2017 14:46

Vox chart forecast for VRS.

Suggestion of 18.5 to 19.5 before the bounce in chart terms.



4 mins 36 secs in. The chart lady likes VRS and has it on alert it seems.

Charts and short term are no use to me I'm long haul but saw the above pop up which may be of interest to the traders.