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[superg1] 11/5/2017 15:45

I'm finding the sales debate a little confusing when I know some names here are in shares or have been where sales either don't exist or take forever.

EG

Pop over to FUM which is one I know well. CEO paying himself double of the CEO here and probably does no more than 4 hours a week as there is nothing to do.

2006 the first real product was supposed to launch. Product launched in the US supposedly going to bring in millions over 2 years back now and the wonder CSD launched in Holland for a return of £170k total revenue 2016. I haven't looked if that includes license payments on deals or is pure sales.

14 years it's been going and I don't think it's got to £500k total revenue yet.

Yet here Nanene has only just launched and some expect instant sales in the millions. They haven't even thought of a name for the ink yet let alone launch it but have supplied/sold some samples, again many say, where are the sales.

VRS won't take 14 years nothing like it but it's a bit stupid Imo to expect instant big repetitive sales.

Nano and QFI went to about £300m to £400m M/Cs selling less than the local sweet store in a year. In fact I think QFI have never had 1 penny in revenue.

Nano was because of Dow, QFI due to Maersk.

BTW Dow are heavily interested in Graphene if you look. VRS have companies that size and bigger in NDAs.

[phoenixs] 11/5/2017 14:46

and that is the difference between a company with stable earnings paying a dividend and one that is growing in areas of new technology. When the orders arrive people will jump in and buy VRS. I do not think that we will have to wait much longer IMO,

[serratia] 11/5/2017 14:31

Forecasts are difficult-

On hardware he said sales have picked up since oil hit $50 but with oil dropping a bit he remains cautious. He can't predict forward oil prices.
The heat sink business has been restructured and costs reduced. Sales are continuing but how do you forecast forward orders from Copper foam, it's in the hands of the customers re time frame.
Graphene samples are out there, they said one large order would have a significant effect. Again in the hands of the customers.

I think if they had a more established sales line it would be easier to give guidance but so much of what they have is in the new product area and it's not easy to predict when sales will occur.

[ridicule] 11/5/2017 14:07

Yes I fully accept that lucky, which is why I did not reproduce the article, but you were right to so for completeness. I have a big holding in VRS and none in Haydale.
My concern remains though that there have been no NDA conversions with VRS so far. Having run a small innovative company, matters move quickly when there is mutual benefit in my experience. SuperG has done a good job in keeping us all up to speed and makes the point that what VRS have is not 'puffed smoke', but real and proven; they even have example mouldings with graphene in them. Why no sales so far this year? No hard forecasts seemed to come out of the investor day, despite folk stating they were going to press for better visibility on sales forecasts.

[luckyorange] 11/5/2017 12:15

To be honest ridicule I looked at the HAYD RNS and thought to myself that it will be a long time in the making that one !

'Haydale Graphene Industries plc (AIM: HAYD), the global nanomaterials group, is pleased to announce that it has entered into a Memorandum of Understanding ('MoU') with Nanospan India Pvt Ltd ('Nanospan') to collaborate on the development of advanced nano composites for applications in the Indian markets.

Nanospan is a graphene application development pioneer based in India with proven efficient and accurate material characterisation services. Pursuant to the MoU, Haydale will work with Nanospan on the development of nano composites focused on Defence, Aerospace and Energy sector opportunities in India.'

The last line says it all.

[superg1] 11/5/2017 11:09

Thanks sand

I know the a hot topic is the super-capicitor as they raise it on the thread.

Mr Dexy

I know one or two looking at simply adding graphene to the cones in current speakers. I won't fall off my chair if VRS are in talks with some as a few of us do more than research and post, we link companies up when we spot opportunities. Then of course some investors actually have companies that could benefit from graphene.

The type people describe looks very interesting. I don't know enough about speakers but I do wonder if such tech would stop them blowing which can be an issue at the top end.

EG I chatted about one topic then got pinged by a company I had no idea about saying "You do realise by discussing it with you they have breached the NDA between us"

My reply was I didn't know they had an NDA or what it was about until you randomly contacted me and told me so no it's not them that breached the NDA. I advised them I would not ID anyone and have kept my word.

That's how these things happen sometimes you when you say something assumptions are made you know confidential information. I found the contact quite amusing and it's happened many times before over the years. EG posting info companies think is confidential and I get pinged. At which point I send the public document which sits on the web probably viewed by just me.
At that point it confirms you have found something important.

On top of that you by contacting so many and asking so many questions sometimes you accidentally get included in email circulations which you should not be on. That ends up with some amusing exchanges too. Then you can see others you may know on the mail list.

I know I spoke to one and said HTF did we get that email and why are we on the email list?

[rogerbridge] 11/5/2017 11:04

I would like to see a surge in sales especially as we have top quality Nanene and inks. That will be hard to achieve at this early stage, having been involved with some product testing and how it can go on and on in time, especially with large players. Everyone has to be 100% certain that the product being developed is as it should be.
So, I will look with interest at this thread and chat to others and be content to wait for connections to be made and orders to come in. No doubt they will but it may take time.
The share price mmay bob about a little, but when news does come, I bleieve that there will be no chance to but at anywhere near today's price.
Inks looks the favourite, but who knows.

[sandbag] 11/5/2017 10:50

Sg1,

"An AIM company CPA-XX seems to do nothing but graphene related batteries/supercapacitors."

I think you mean CAP-XX and they do actually do a bit more than graphene related batteries and supercapacitors.

[mr dexy] 11/5/2017 10:21

Lets face it SG.. you don't need to look too far to see the size of the companies looking at graphene applications...

The Branson article re aerospace for example.. and a little known company here :



Thanks to all for the feedback from the site visit.. your time and effort is greatly appreciated.

Regards to all


Mr D

[superg1] 11/5/2017 09:58

A quick example.

Cambridge day.

I didn't know they had a battery room. We were taken there and it's a small unit and a pile of batteries were on the side. The small button type batteries.

Rather than ask what do you do here, what are those, who are they I just asked what was in them.

"Graphene ink and silicon"

Then to another I said why is there a battery unit here.

"It's not just ours we link up with the Warwick manufacturing group"

If you check the news you will see the Warwick are in collaboration with VRS on graphene batteries and other products.

So until I saw that room and batteries I didn't appreciate the ink would be used in them. I haven't started to look up such batteries yet to see what papers I can find wither by Cambridge, Warwick or others. It's on the to do list.

An AIM company CPA-XX seems to do nothing but graphene related batteries/supercapacitors. I haven't looked deeply into them.

VRS/Warwick have already demonstrated a graphene super capacitor as on the Nanene website pages.

Imo no value at all has been attributed to that breakthrough, like an NDA it's sitting there.

"Many companies are looking to Graphene enhanced batteries to give the extra energy density they require to power their devices for longer, and to offer faster charging when required. 2-DTech, along with our collaboration partners Warwick Manufacturing Group, have successfully incorporated Nanene into a working supercapacitor system. On the basis of this initial success, we are keen to explore further projects in this field."

[superg1] 11/5/2017 09:46

Graphene companies

For the new arrivals and the odd bit of frustration.

Such companies across the board have not caught the interest of investors in general. All seem to have little interest while the market establishes itself. Some will simply swat the word graphene off and laugh. I saw such a guy do that at the investor show.

One fund manager did it at an event when the question came up and was quickly corrected by a technical director of where the event was. That's the ignorance of the market.

I say the market but it seems to me 99% plus like to just chase what the next thing is with a patience level of a few days or weeks when investment advice is 5 years. So most on the AIM including some here are short term share price chasers. That's why you get churn.

Take the BBC grapheme membrane news. A few investors came flying into graphene companies when such technology is 5 to 10 years off, it has no value for some time but in the fullness of time will. SPs took off for some and soon dies down as they exited and still do.

EG if some company appeared just for graphene membranes and water desalination then I'm pretty sure it would have an M/C just like the others here, perhaps much higher through hype chasers. They could all go on about Lockheed Martin hyping themselves to death due to Lockheeds's serious interest in that area.

IMO it's inevitable that VRS will end up with some deal or deals with the many names that are in NDAs with them. The odd one or two are huge companies that are actively talking about graphene in various applications.

One company at least I have as someone that likes to also take a stake or in some way finance such companies. I know that as they have done it with others, and are already doing it with graphene.

So I try to switch off from the short term moans and groans about sales. The sales and deals will come in the industry as graphene is wanted in many applications because it improves many aspects.

A stalling point for many years has been reliable GNPs and the ability to produce them in quantity and cheaply.

VRS can do that, they tick every box. They have the quality they have the proven data and the have the processes to produce it cheaply.

A document was posted the recently some have seen it prior. It shows just how seriously some departments are taking graphene but not one comment about the content which means most probably didn't bother to read it.

For me putting in some effort is the difference between understanding a sector or business and that considerably helps on deciding to invest or not. With VRS we also have a very frugal, talented, capable team who are not here for lifestyle fraud but to build a solid substantial business.

I quite happily sit on information that will not get posted and some which doesn't get shared. I have noted some get lazy expecting me to provide all the info on here. I have said it before you won't get all the info here.

EG

I said a website was coming and that was the Nanene launch. On that news for some reason investor interest was significant. All they did was give what they had a nameand the share price took off. What then when the ink gets a name and launches?

Some guys saw an NDA list, I'm aware of other names on top of that and they are big too. I'm aware of other things because I obsessively dig through information. So I sit waiting for such to become news or not as the case may be.

As the market seems to react to articles on companies, there is a fair chance that will happen soon as I'm well aware of one that may be appearing. Like Hastings who knows of one Cambridge way, I don't know when.

I'll state which one post it appearing, if it does.

But if anyone wants to talk repeat sales then I'd be looking the way of the last announced order as the most likely for the near term. With many unknowns on the long list they are talking too.

Little things said here and there even on the Cambridge day often mean very little and don't register with those present. However if you have read things to death the odd comment can have significant meaning and so ticks a box for me.

So as I always say DYOR

[ridicule] 11/5/2017 09:03

VRS are clearly at an exciting stage but, given they are in such an exciting place, it is of concern to me that there have been no hard developments in terms of sales in Graphene/nanene this year. More positive newsflow today from Haydale who are hovering around the 200p mark.

[superg1] 11/5/2017 08:09

Just identified the aircraft seat guy too that linked up on the Mexico visit

Federico Trincavelli
International Sales Manager
Acro Aircraft Seating University of Buenos Aires
United Kingdom

[superg1] 11/5/2017 08:00

It's all those quick bags of crisps and nuts on the hoof, such is the life of a very busy CEO.

[rogerbridge] 11/5/2017 07:51

He still looks well and up for it

[superg1] 11/5/2017 07:25

California flag solved it seems (header flag counter). We get a regular California visitor which it seems is Marko Ruusinen

I note he has tweeted about the VRS CEO's presentation in Berlin which was titled high speed graphene ink printing.



I'd heard the name Marko so now we know who that is.

[chumbo] 10/5/2017 19:17

Senior relationship mgr for RBS

[superg1] 10/5/2017 17:29

Jo Whitehead‏ @JoanneWhitehe15 43m43 minutes ago
More
Amazing morning @P_Roberts_9 @bryanfashola @UoMGraphene Thanks for arranging @nigellaughton @neillricketts @versarien #graphene #2dtech

Good to see some are taking in an interest in graphene

This guy was there too.

Bryan Fashola
@bryanfashola
Business enthusiast, Entrepreneur and Corporate Banker.

[superg1] 10/5/2017 16:50

Scrutable

I note the repeat orders point.

The first issue is much of the early graphene buying has been for research be it from VRS or others. As said at the time by VRS and since that OEM order they did was believed to be the worlds biggest single order at that time which came to about 1kg at over £100 per gram.

Since that order we now know at least some of it, if not all went to McLaren via North Thin ply technologies.

NTPT are in Aerospace, motorsport, Marine, sports via golf club shafts and luxury goods.. They deal with lightweight strong composites and carbon fibres etc.

About NTPT™

'Thin Ply Technology is revolutionising the world of laminate composites with significantly improved mechanical properties and the freedom to position each microfiber optimally for its intended use.'

So you can see why enhancement of their products using graphene is of interest to them.

So the most likely first decent repeat order will come from them. It's still a live line of enquiry.

[superg1] 10/5/2017 15:29

???

Jo Whitehead‏ @JoanneWhitehe15 7h7 hours ago
More
On my way to @UoMGraphene with @P_Roberts_9 Looking forward to learning more about #graphene with @neillricketts @versarien #education
0 replies 3 retweets 6 likes

National Partnership Manager, Business Development & Specialist Sectors,Lombard #AssetFinance.

[superg1] 10/5/2017 15:27

I'm not going to bother at all looking at that. One my DD there and misquoted then as talking about $70 billion markets they are in it was $700 billion.

I did try to get some answers from them on claims but they don't seem to want to put it in writing happy to talk but not to type. Talk has no audit trail and can easily be denied.

Golden rule if it's not written down it didn't happen.

[rogerbridge] 10/5/2017 12:45

VRS streets ahead

[rogerbridge] 10/5/2017 12:38

Interesting TheKLF in the valuation they state that ultra thin and graphene products have been ignored for now.

[theklf] 10/5/2017 12:00

Appears to be a new research report out on Talga Resources (ASX:TLG)

They include some valuation table based on assumptions of graphene price from $10/kg to $55/kg to arrive at valuations for it of $300m-1700m !