Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[superg1] 17/5/2017 11:03

Thermal

The guy doing the paper using XG sciences M grade GNPs. On an 8% loading a 300% gain which he calls poor considering the stand alone comparison of graphene (6800%)

Both the M5 and M25 composite samples had an almost linear increase with filler loading independent of composite preparation method. The biggest improvement has been achieved by the solvent-assisted mixed M25/epoxy sample at 8 wt.% loading, with thermal conductivity enhanced from 0.20 W m- 1K-1 (neat epoxy) to 0.76 W m-1K-1. This ~300 % improvement is less than expected considering the GNP’s high thermal conductivity, as discussed in the next section. The relatively poor improvement seen experimentally is mainly attributed to the poor thermal coupling of the GNP with the polymer matrix leading to a high interfacial thermal resistance, also known as the Kapitza resistance [9], and high interfacial phonon scattering.

[superg1] 17/5/2017 10:44

To clarify the thermal value bit as in the paper

This thermal conductivity value corresponds to a 6800 % enhancement over the neat polymer. So I take it they say Graphene is 68 times more thermally conductive the the polymer.

[superg1] 17/5/2017 10:35

Right

That paper has opened up a number of further properties and aspects of GNPs I was unaware of.

Knowing such things and being able to demonstrate why some will work and others won't is important imo.

It helps explain why some don't work and multi-layer absolutely does not work on strength for more reason that just layers alone.

But the list so far on aspects that affect a composite re Gnps are.

Layer numbers.
Lateral size.
Air bubbles created.
Voids.
Wrinkling or folds
defects
Aspect ratio (lateral v thickness)
Naturally aligning particular on larger lateral sizes.
Tendency to crumple for large lateral which means they lose potential gains.

Eg
M25 buckling more easily due to its larger diameter, which compromises its aspect ratio advantage over M5, resulting in only slightly better mechanical performance.

Electrical and thermal issues affected by directional aligning. Orientation is important.

I haven't read it it full yet but to explain some.

If you have all large lateral and mix them they tend to naturally lie in the same direction. Like throwing a pile of paper in the air they will land all flat. That has an impact on the electrical on thermal flow. It seems to suggest it will be good one way when measured but not as good the other due to the way they are aligned. A good mix in various directions seems to be the full gain there.

Thermal

Quite obviously for that paper as Epoxy resins are poor on thermal. Gains are easy to obtain just by adding GNPs, possibly any old GNPs I'll dig further but huge gains for composites on thermal isn't really a breakthrough as such that's what graphite/graphene does. However there does seem to be a case for enhancement in all directions of such composite with GNPs by being able to have a good mix of orientation of the GNPs within the composite.

On the bubbles part the spare seems to indicate that more bubbles and voids appear with multi-layer and creates fracture points etc.

I'll keep reading.

[phoenixs] 17/5/2017 10:34

the old adage of "all good things come to those who wait" comes to mind.
It is imperative that VRS's product is completely verified and vindicated by potential users. Unfortunately for us shareholders that takes time and also we do not know what is going in the background as the company talks to prospective customers until MOU's /sizeable orders are placed.
If there are those who are not prepared to wait it will only benefit people who want to buy at this or a lower price. I suspect that there are buyers at or around these levels who will pocket the shares and sit on them waiting for real news

[tim3416] 17/5/2017 10:25

Good spot Jointer"During my visit with McLaren, I discovered that engineers are using graphene in the Formula 1 race cars, although they wouldn't say exactly how and where. This is obviously top secret even though at the headquarters in Woking, England, I witnessed a stripped-down chassis of the latest 2017 season car, the MCL32."

[superg1] 17/5/2017 10:17

Moving on.

That appear has a lot more in it than just talking about XG sciences M grade GNPs but just on that point.

The strain at failure decreased significantly with the addition of GNP. The M5/epoxy composites were the most brittle, with the strain to failure dropping from 4.5 % to 0.9 % (decreased by 81 %) as weight fraction goes up from neat resin to 8 wt.%. The M25/epoxy composites were less brittle, but still the strain at failure still declined by 64 % for 8 wt.% samples.

So 8% loadings saw a 64% to 81% drop strength compared to the raw resin.

[superg1] 17/5/2017 10:15

Oh dear typical responses I see Haydale gets a mention. I'm not getting into discussion re that and junk ill-informed posters, perhaps manipulation attempt posters.

[petewy] 17/5/2017 10:06

Right JH, all woffle at least Haydale delivers

[john henry] 17/5/2017 10:01

Company certainly needs some contractual news to drive the share price forward. Lots of jam being talked about but as yet no deals.

[jointer13] 17/5/2017 09:56

McLaren again
engineers ARE using graphene in formula 1 race cars

"The University of Manchester helped with production of the compound, collaborating with Richard Mille, McLaren Applied Technologies, and North Thin Ply Technology to engineer the Graph TPT material, making a product that is lighter and more robust than most other compounds."

[timbo003] 17/5/2017 08:42

Re: post #4114 and 4115, (to provide a bit of balance):

Meanwhile back in the world of commerce, one of the the world's largest epoxy resin manufacturers, Huntsman (who provided the epoxy resin used in the study), have chosen to employ functionalized GNPs to enhance their epoxy resins.

Their source of GNPs are probably AMG or Talga (possibly both) with functionalization performed using Haydale's cold plasma process.

[superg1] 17/5/2017 08:27

A short read in and I find this

"Secondly my gratitude also goes to my co-supervisor Prof. Robert Young for his kind suggestions and guidance in the time of my research project."

He's the guru at Manchester Uni and the guy that did or supervised the tests on Nanene and was present at the Mclaren watch launch re enhanced carbon fibre.

So that is a Manchester Uni case paper testing XG sciences M grade 'graphene' which gave very poor and in some regards detrimental results.

Multi-layer improves elasticity but destroys Ultimate tensile strength. It's the polar opposite to examples with good quality few layer re UTS.

So completely confirmed Imo XG sciences M grade 'graphene' is complete trash and it supports the claim that multi-layer is useless when it comes to strength enhancement.

Switching to Directa plus. Much of there graphene is many layer which is why I think they had returned goods to the value of about £800k.

It probably also explains why VRS have seen so many enquiries as they have shown theirs improves strength considerably.

XG was supposed to be a world lead an early mover. They don't give test results or give examples. I have looked and asked for them.

So anyone in the future that says X do graphene if it's over 10 layers I am not interested and will simply tell anyone asking to read the paper in the header. Even XG under 10 layer didn't work either in a paper from a few years back which I'll try and find again and post.

[superg1] 17/5/2017 08:01

XG sciences and multi-layer GNPs

We have often had the date of multi-layer being useless. Then many go on about other companies producing graphene which is often multi or 100's of layers of graphene.

Perhaps as in this paper it shows where logic and common sense meets science.

One material guy had been wondering in multilayer has issues due to the bonding between layers and that's why multi-layer simply doesn't work for strength but can for elasticity.

I don't recall reading this one before but it's paper submitted to Manchester Uni where XG Sciences M grade GNPs were tested in epoxy resins.

It further helps explain why XG don't list results and tests.

The results are very poor for ultimate tensile strength and the epoxy becomes weaker continuing on a deterioration path as the level of loading goes up.

I say multi-layer but they list them as 10-20 layers thick.

the summary re strength

It is found that the efficiency of stress transfer from matrix to GNP is poor, which may be due to poor adhesion of the fillers to the epoxy matrix and easy slippage between internal graphene nanoplatelets layers. DMTA showed that Tg decreased in most cases, which is attributed to a reduction of crosslinking density. The addition of the GNPs increased the Young’s modulus but the tensile strength and elongation at failure were significantly reduced.

The paper also mentions multi-layer v few layer as deteriorating for electrical too so I'll read some more.

So if you want to know why multi-layer doesn't work it's evidenced in here. Some sell graphene 100's of layers thick which is many times the example and results would therefore be much worse.

Goodfellow has some listed as <50 layers suitable for strength enhancement which of course is BS.

I'll put the paper in the header.

[superg1] 16/5/2017 19:32

Rhe

I was having a conversation about 'investors' on BBs earlier today.

Many are not investors but just short term share price chasers. I'm quite happy to do that with some but then I call it trading with little long term interest in the company and rarely post.

Equally I know some on here are long term investors and they have build up positions in excess of 250k shares and others over 500k shares.

Now with those amount you can more or less be called a potential long term investor as if you tried to offload those on bad news you are not going to get a good price. Then if you had managed to cash in over time on the drift then on good news you may want them back but the same problem exists.

So for me when I like something I buy and hold as it's pointless me trying to guess on news and whether stock will be available.

Currently it's still over 100% from a few months back and over 40% up since the fund raise.

I have thoughts of a much higher share price based on the research and the leads VRS have, so I'll be hanging on for that but have an open target as one good turn could create another.

I've watched companies go to ridiculous levels due to be signed up with 1 company and watched one well known AIM soar on the back of a deal with someone VRS are in an NDA with.

So if such circs come about then anyone trying to get 250k shares or 500k shares plus is going to struggle and be battling with others looking to land up.

Clearly there is enough churn/supply at the moment probably down to profit taking at this time and it may continue for weeks. However if big news come when there is no supply or big news ends such a supply then the share price would take off.

When you get good prospects on the back of such news funds come in and sit sucking up all the trader sells. We've all seen it before.

That's the gamble, go in when the share price is low while others are fearful, or wait and chase the trend with more security.

Someone used Samsung as an example over on III. So if they signed with Samsung or Apple (just using the big names) what then. Is it a case of waiting to see if Apple or Samsung throw in a big order or take a stake in the company.

Just throwing the thoughts out there. As mentioned I watched the herd nutters wet their pants as they have heard company A is talking to their Aim company and the BBs go ramptastic. VRS is chatting to 50-100 companies in NDAs many of which are very large companies. They in the main have approached VRS.

Who was that company adding something to coke (tomato extract) chatting to coke, claims of factory staff with shares in tears as they were all going to be rich. PXS or something like that. Posters can be absolutely barmy at times, I have many as just seriously problematic gambling addicts and others just plain bonkers. The venom that comes out when greed turns into despair is incredible.

Plenty of chat about sorting sales.

They are sorting sales and the team has expanded since I last mentioned them. The last thing they need to be doing is to be making a pretty website for PIs to look at. The website doesn't create sales, the product and team do.

[rheumking] 16/5/2017 18:18

I agree-when you start reading around this company I start thinking wow the potential here is amazing and this could be one of those companies that really could multibag once it starts flying.
Very good and heavily invested CEO who is out pressing a lot of flesh and has world leading technology with lots of big companies chasing them. So basically ticks all my boxes- but still the share price is kicking around 20-22 at a time when the FTSE is soaring and you start asking if your capital would be better employed elsewhere .
However I think I am being impatient and have only been invested here a couple of months gradually building my stake- just hope that things take off (as they should) before we hit the inevitable stock market correction

[pcjoe] 16/5/2017 17:28

Sounds great SG - But just hope the CEO not spreading himself too thin - Some might say he`d be better employed bagging a couple of big deals first & then going on the promo trail waving the contracts - Chamberlain style but with a better outcome!

All possibly good for the profile & the speculative short term SP, but not nearly as good as a signed up big deal or two from any currently interested long NDA list

So - What to do - Jump in on the raised profile & noise? - or hope the share price stays reasonably suppressed & get in when there`s less talk & more walk - the age old problem

Think i`l just keep watching for a wee while yet

[superg1] 16/5/2017 14:36

Pc

The CEO tour.

I had recent comms about sales and other issues mentioned here like the website.

Typically they expect little interest through the website and are getting material interest through the tech events, some of which they are invited too or selected. Note the CEO has just been invited apparently by the DTI to attend trade events in Japan, Korea and elsewhere.

As an example post the Hipernano event recently it is said they picked up over 100 enquiries.

The CEO is just back from Berlin and picked up interest there as well.

Most of the NDAs and interest they have is companies calling them asking for presentations which often turn into NDAs.

The task now is to go about turning those NDAs into JVs. heads of terms, deals etc. There are some massive companies in NDAs with them. From electronic and telecom giants to Aerospace, Chemical and two large companies interested in packaging etc etc.

besides that they crack on with the basics of sales of Nanene and ink be it a few grams of Nanene for research to 1kg and more.

Typically research few grams would be £400 per gram. 1 kg demonstrated recently £100 plus per gram.

Going forward for very big orders the price would drop but don't confuse the selling price with cost.

VRS have a low cost process easily scalable and proven to work. Some make the assumption of high GNPs prices = high production costs. It may be for some but not VRS.

The actual figures are pretty stunning if you dig deep enough.

[superg1] 16/5/2017 14:26

lol

I'm in a rush, things to do, changed to recent.

[superg1] 16/5/2017 14:25

ax

Like the gnps there are some that sell ink. If you listened to Prof Ferrari he was quoting siemen meters figures of resistivity and so on. It varies according to the inks making some useless for some uses.

It's complicated and I haven't got my head fully around it. However Prof Ferrari has and has recently won an award for his work so I go by what he says. He is a known world expert and we were lucky to get to speak to him.

Also many inks need either drying at high temperature and pressing to get the desired result.

EG the NGI/UOM will openly admit they are way behind Cambridge on graphene inks.

There is plenty in posts on the topic.

[chumbo] 16/5/2017 14:25

Interesting typo, unless you believe you're on the FUM board SG...

[phoenixs] 16/5/2017 14:22

The key for any product which goes into a process is to ensure that the product has the total confidence of the customer. Very often the product in question represents a very small percentage of the cost of the final product into which it is put.However any failing can be incredibly expensive for the customer. Just think of aero engines, one faulty machined part can be catastrophic. As a result the testing processes can be very lengthy but once approved it becomes a must have and the competition will find it nearly impossible to replace unless they go through the same testing and can prove that their product is better and/or considerably cheaper.
I would advocate a little patience, the quality of the various products sent out to the NDA companies will imo win through and it will only take one NDA approval to light the share price

[superg1] 16/5/2017 14:19

Pcjoe

Hi good to hear from you.

Novalia

As explained already they linked up with Cambridge ink. Unilever used such tech from Novalia using that ink in a supermarket as an ad for Knorr products offering recipes and sales went up.

No need to take my word for it here is Jon Snow the Unilever Global packaging manager saying so in California at an IDtechex event late 2016. Note he says Novalia in Cambridge.

13 mins 30 seconds



Nokia

Nokia were already with Cambridge ink before VRS arrived and are still there. I found a paper where Nokia did destruction tests on Cambridge ink printed Rfids, the results were good. 1000 bend tests and hardly an drop in performance.

With the sales mentioned. No not a large amount and not known if Nokia. Just me asking where the first sale of ink went and the suggestion was the Nordic region. So 2 + 2 etc but it may not be Nokia.

I won't go into ink and the Gnps in detail just yet but ink can be used for various things besides printing as we understand it. EG it can go into batteries and composites etc.

Re

"The CEO is embarked on a whistle stop tour promoting the CO. when firm heavyweight contracts still up in the air - Just trying to boost share price for a placing?"

Absolutely not.

At the recent Momentus events appearance it was post the recent placing. The CEO said on a tight ship pre placing they had enough to run for 22 months.

The placing was to offer cash up to expand on both ink and GNPs as and when necessary along with capital to help build a team and costs etc.

The desired amount for that initial plan was £700k with an initial fund raise desired of £1 million. They went via primarybid to allow PIs to get involved. It quickly hit £1.5 mill so they pulled the plug and have effectively Ley in private investors by upping it to £1.5 mill.

So they had 22 months worth on a tight ship and needed a forecast £700k to do what they wanted but have £800k over that. So they are well funded for the next year or so.