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[superg1] 26/5/2017 07:28

The KLF

re your comment

"For instance as a basic requirement I would suggest no resource be wasted on a specultive cold call from some low level engineer"

Did you go to Cambridge and see the NDA sample list?

If you did then you may wonder why the CEO is about to pop up in South Korea, Japan and elsewhere.

I don't think it has anything to do with going to see a low level engineer that put in a speculative cold call.

He is far too busy to be going at there for the fun of it. South Korea happens to be one of the most interested and aggressive companies in the graphene sector and we all know which companies are based there.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 22:22

The KLF

re

Is it possible to gain some clarity or colour on the nature of these cold calls and qualify the credibility of the counterparties?

Yes turn up to an event and speak to them. If you did and saw the company names you'd be able to work out why the CEO is about to pop up elsewhere on the planet.

If more or more turn into something material we'll soon here about it.

why do you think a CTO is needed. Why are they adding staff?

All will become clear as time goes on.

[rogerbridge] 25/5/2017 18:06

I can understand why VRS chose to use a brand name for Nanene. There must have been a lot of companies who have purchased none performing graphene and come to the conclusion it was all hype or just did not do what it said in the tin.
We now have a branded quality assured product, internationally recognised standards will help but at least we have something to sell right now.

No doubt that some prospective users have samples, it is just a matter of time before orders arrive.

It would be advantageous if VRS could provide finished sub contract items or initial samples from companies in the group. This may help a company who are interested in an item but do not have the know how to develop it.

[supernumerary] 25/5/2017 17:07

sg1 - I might be wrong, but I don't think you've got me on filter ;¬))

This is what you quote me as saying: 'he said he had no idea what the sector is about, no researched it or any interest in it'
This is what I actually said: '- I don't know anything (literally) about AGM, so can't respond.
- nor do I know much about the sector.'
Gives an idea of how accurate your research is - two thirds of your 'quote' is wrong. Anyway, I'm certainly interested in the sector, and know more about it than I did then - the benefit of an open and inquiring mind ;¬)

lucky - I only complain about the NONs because there are no real ones - I wouldn't mind if there was a decent mix, but in the absence of a real RNS, even a NON would be good, wouldn't it? Show they still have at least some commercial activity ongoing. Or perhaps not - has that Heads of Agreement (ie an agreement to agree) been turned into a real Agreement yet? Does anybody know?

chumbo - so when would you have expected the copper foam to have gone into products - at least a couple of years ago I guess?

[superg1] 25/5/2017 16:52

Chumbo

The only finger to add to the pie is that some have been already working with graphene but not viable graphene.

That would explain why NTPT appeared and bought about 1 kg. We still don't know where that has gone in full but it's far more than a need to try a few experiments with.

I'm sure the watch guys didn't wake up one morning wanting graphene in the watch. It had been planned for a long time and rumour is what they tried didn't work hence the appearance at the NGI looking for graphene that does work.

So while things take time I won't fall off my chair of orders in kg terms appear.

Sales is one thing forming a JV on something with a big name with a real product already proven is another.

If it's wing tips of aircraft you know the actual revenue is probably 10 years or more away. If it's something like bodywork on supercars then it could be around the corner.

But then often big money and big names are about things the world has no need or use for but they sell in the billions.

Like Andre Geim I see no need for a bendy phone but its gimmick that would make the first to act billions.

I have a loft full of useless junk that was a 5 minute wonder as I have children and it became the in thing.

Adults nowadays on tech are just big kids.

And the city folk in the flash cars are doing so for kudos and attention not because it's useful A to B city traffic runaround. It's all about image.

The big names will use graphene for the gimmicks it can provide and it will race to be the first mover on some things many of us haven't thought of yet.

I mean how many upgrades do I need in a car on the music system. Why do a I need steering wheel heater in a car.

[luckyorange] 25/5/2017 16:14

Great post chumbo, one quick question there. The Uni's have done a lot of experimental research that would hopefully short cut any R&D with data sheets etc; would that be the case?

[chumbo] 25/5/2017 15:41

I'm in a similar kind of industry - you could loosely call it performance materials. We buy in a range of different materials from round the world and develop and manufacture components that have a hard life. After reading all the posts about time to orders I went though to our R&D and had a chat with a couple of our lab rats to confirm my suspicions. For a new raw material to find its way into product in service via all the intermediate steps would be roughly a year minimum. That's for a substitute product rather than a new animal that we need to learn how to process.

All other things being equal I'd expect Roger's comments to be on the money, ie: lots of samples this year but to expect a typical manufacturing operation (quality assured at that) to go from concept to production via all the lab work stages in a few months is likely to be optimistic.

In gestation period terms think elephant rather than rabbit and even then that would be quick for some.

I know some have had access to nanene for longer (before it was nanene) but some of them have ordered haven't they?

[luckyorange] 25/5/2017 15:13

Not so long ago supernumerary was saying there were too many RNSNON and knocking VRS for doing it, now the total opposite, says it all really; good job the company don't take on board what anonymous people on bb's say hey!

[superg1] 25/5/2017 14:54

Wasting your time Phoenixs hence I filtered him some time back when he said he had no idea what the sector is about, no researched it or any interest in it.

Nothing of value to add so what's the point of reading it etc.

[phoenixs] 25/5/2017 14:49

its a pity that supernumerary really does not have anything constructive to opine. Seems to appear only to criticise.
Why don't you look up what the company has been doing for the past few years and you may begin to appreciate that building a good company takes time and a great deal of effort. If you are truly interested in VRS talk to the management, go and visit them and ask your "relevant"questions. I am sure that they will give you straight answers which is more than you will get from most AIM companies.
In the meantime, I am sure that VRS are continuing to develop the business so that shareholders will benefit even if it takes longer than one would wish.

[supernumerary] 25/5/2017 14:19

Unsurprisingly I'm with ridicule on this one. VRS will have been going for 4 years in June (counting only from listing, not all the stuff before), and so far the only thing it's done for shareholders is take money off them.

It's all very well taking the long view, but as Keynes said - in the long run we're all dead...

SG - if they've got news to release, they can put it out as an RNSNON - the nomad couldn't give a damn about them.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 14:17

Rod

Obviously DYOR research and the option to sell if you have concerns is there just like it is for anyone else.

Got all mine and will be holding long term. Nothing I can see concerns me but plenty to be excited about imo.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 14:14

Rod

But you said you are experienced in business but your understanding of timelines seems way out for the bigger picture.


The rule for news is generally 10% move in revenue which in the car of VRS overall is around £700k.

For the graphene it would be lower as st nd alone but collective sales of £100k and higher won't trigger news. Larger individual sales will.

Others use news that has no value at all to gain some hype or just plain lies.

You sound like a news hungry typical AIM poster in event times

Those is new tech going into new products. I'm not being negative they are clearly very busy and have new staff for sales in play.

Look at AGM or rather don't, they have made claims of big production capability but it's untrue if you know where to look in real terms.

Their plan has been to top load with many senior roles and the results are very poor. That's nothing to do with demand just the strategy Imo to decide with a lifestyle company, target long off deals as they can't provide the goods, it keeps the lie hidden.


I'm now going to switch off from any short terms sales questions completely. I'm sure such sales are going on but it's becoming a silly topic.

Why are other Aims allowed 10 years with no questions yet VRS get 6 months or so from launch but in any case have made large sales straight out of the blocks.

Don't forget Nomads block news which companies think should be released and that applies right here.

But even if such news comes, the cries are "where is more news".

Chill...... all is well.

[rogerbridge] 25/5/2017 13:38

I agree with what you say Phoenix and can understand Rid's frustration. As S.G. Has said, there is a lot going on behind the scenes.
Having been involved in R&D projects, I know how long it can take to introduce a product/ material, test and present the findings for approval. The larger companies are the most difficult with more hoops to jump through. Critical failure, health and safety and due diligence to name a few.
I am only expecting sample Nanene sales for 2017! Anything else such as JV's would be a bonus. A repeat order from the "big customer" or ink sales are more likely.

I thinks we were all a little over excited when there was a lot of graphene mention in the press and several graphene related stocks benefited. The hype has died down and we are bobbing along the bottom, some companies have issued rns's that have been mentioned here, so I will take that no further.

Some short termers will have sold and maybe some who took up the 15p placing may have sold a few, but I think most long term holders remain fully invested. If the price wanders down, I may consider a top up.

I can not see the share price dong much in the very short term, but one major rns could come at any time and you will not be able to load up at anywhere near this price. Now back to the pool, enjoying sun, back to the U.K. On Friday.

P.s. Interesting link to all IOF holders from luckyorange, that wonderful word helium is mentioned as an element of the future. Sorry about this, but all IOF holders will know what this is about.

[ridicule] 25/5/2017 13:32

phoenix,
You are right about initial evaluations taking time, but something should have broken by now, given the level of interest and that VRS say they have qualified some of the key processes and have scaleability at modest investment levels from where they are today. I say this, not because I am impatient, but because VRS need momentum to remain an attractive risk to investors and an attractive, albeit small, partner of the much larger companies they are in discussion with. This has always been the case in my experience, both as an investor and as an MD of a small innovative company, now retired.

[phoenixs] 25/5/2017 10:35

ridicule,
I agree with most of what you have written but the last phrase including "need yesterday" is not what I would agree with. Of course, it would be great news to have some concrete signed MOU's AND better still an rns able order yesterday,today or tomorrow but I have always found that the best business takes the longest time.
Nanene has only been out there for a few months and given the radical technology that it is, I am not surprised that samples, testing etc are taking time.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 10:31

I have not in 30 years met anyone that is as passionate as me when I go after something in the career I was in. The gain over those 30 years was satisfaction. I had no need to put myself under so much pressure at all, there was no monetary gain.


In fact what I would take on willingly was at times severely detrimental for me and my family such was the nature of the 'tasks' involved. So often it was matters that others were just too lazy or too scared to take on.

I the found passion to dig in elsewhere to carry on with what I enjoy is not something I can avoid iris just a trait. I'll just have to keep going and in this case it's the graphene market and companies involved.

My posting on here will slow down and in any case it seems pointless feeding haphazard gamblers which it seems is what most are on ADVFN.

So my drive will now rise considerably, will be far more objective and will if I have my way be very beneficial for VRS true investors.

The quieter I go on here the harder I am working in the background and I know how to work hard, I love hard work.

I won't be engaging with the ones that just try it on with various false bits and I can't be bothered with explaining it over and over again to those that can't be bothered to read the links, papers and data sheets. I have many filtered and have no interest at all in what they say.

I care about what other companies are doing and saying in the sector, even when I'm not invested in companies . Lesotho various diamond mines is an example as PRG followers will know all too well.

Now for me here on in it's all graphene and the graphene companies. I will share my findings behind the scenes be it to interested parties or reports to regulators with allegations of fraud.

The process for that started and I need to get on with the completion of evidential files, research and promising prospects be it end users or companies involved. Posting on matters that have been shared many times where contributors are simply too lazy to read is pointless.

So time for me to crack on with less posting as time goes on. Converting all the knowledge gained into something material and beneficial to investors and genuine companies in the sector.

DYOR

[superg1] 25/5/2017 09:59

I comment on these points as I have read the links and various scientific papers and try to understand the good and bad that could have on the industry.

Over and over gain people post having never bothered to read and understand what was spoon feed for them.

Even when I post listing the details and explaining they whinge and moan about the length of the posts and can't be bothered to read them.

Hence I say very few on here are true investors, just share price chasers who want short term news to cash in on a trade.

Hence as I said my momentum is shifting to working behind the scenes in various forms which may include undermining various companies out there but not on public BBs but where it really hurts and could finish their business.

If Burger king shuts near a Macdonalds naturally the sales go up for Macdonalds. If as a competitor you can show Burger King had been selling you horse burgers it doesn't just shoot one it may shut a few more and open up a whole new range of customers.

In the case of graphene the customers are freely advertised and they many are being sold horse meat advertised as pedigree beef.

I am not speculating re my last few posts BTW. Take on board what I have said.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 09:50

I hope that explains some of it.

The vast majority simply don't understand graphene and clearly many invested are a million miles off understanding it.

I'm 3 years in and in the last month or two I'd put myself about 300% more clued up than 2.75 years in with a lot more to learn.

I had the opportunity to sit down with representatives from very large company, one was an engineer. They use all sorts of composites including in Aerospace.

They wanted to talk graphene.

They had absolutely no idea other than what you might hear on the BBC website. I could have told them anything and they wouldn't have been able to challenge it. The vast majority of end users have no idea what GNPs are, what they do, why they work and which one's will or won't work.

They couldn't stand up for more than about 30 seconds and talk about graphene.

That's the situation you can feed many including these big companies lies and BS they have no idea.

With established sectors its easy to spot BS. In the graphed sector its a free for all and some work hard to deceive victims to cash in.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 09:43

That sales pitch.

So you have your own data. And typically in business you are looking to make your product more attractive than the existing supplier.

It is all so easy to say our product is better than theirs.

But what if you can prove it as you have the verifiable data. I'd happily speak to all companies and say DO NOT BUY multi-layer GNPs with a view to strengthening composites. The data is out there to show it doesn't work and in some cases which company supplied it.

It would save the customer wasted expense of buying the product, and the expense of the R and D trailing graphene.

The supplier would BS them and call it graphene. The user would then find it destroys the strength of it and they will think graphene is just false hype and no doubt would say that to others.

They would then form the opinion that graphene doesn't work and scoff at competitors trying to use it and use their data to customers to show it doesn't work, not to waste their money and to stick with them.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 09:36

The plus side which is what you mention.

I have built up a database of what others have form lateral size purity defect ratios etc etc but I can find lilt data or verifiable data form the companies themselves.

The data I have found in Universities testing the GNPs and in every case os far its poor results. XG in particular.

So the plus for VRS for all the rubbish out there is this.

Such companies have been teeing up end users with interest in graphene so there is a long list of companies that have taken an interest in graphene. I heavily suspect that is why VRS are getting cold called by some big names as VRS have shown Nanene works.

As I saw some of the NDA list at Cambridge and had already worked out others I know the companies have been let down having been supplied junk. Those names with VRS in some cases are the names I have seen in various PDFs and company news worldwide.

So for the junk graphene producers the good they have done for someone like VRS is to identify end users that have already engaged.

In the business world if you can supply something that works or cheaper, better, opens up new markets and so on then.

So there is an opportunity to engage those names who are easily identifiable and give them the reassurance of am NGI certified product and NGI certified that it works.

It's a great sales pitch to have in your armoury.

[superg1] 25/5/2017 09:27

Rid

re the tenor of debate here is increasingly focussed on why every other company involved in Graphene is rubbish and making false claims, while VRS have exceptionally exciting prospects. If true, this should produce unprecedented sales opportunities for VRS.

For me it's the frustration of PIs being mugged initially but there are factors which are highly damaging from those companies but equally potentially lucrative for those companies with something genuine.

EG I can absolutely prove that some have released false news.

The hype around graphene has been high but the multi-layer suppliers have left end users disappointed as graphene in their eyes does not work in many aspects.

So we now have some hype companies about jumping on the back of big claims about graphene, with no public data about performance. Some have been running years and we have already exposed XG and that is going on elsewhere.

So you can make big claims about what it can do and supply evaluation sized product which may or may not work.

Then if you are smart as a public lifestyle company you pick products way into the future which buys you years of evaluation samples without having to go bulk and keep the spin going.

[luckyorange] 25/5/2017 09:27

Nothing about sales with the other companies ridicule. I would guess that there are a lot of small sales/samples being sent out.

No news for a while seems to unsettle people but the other side of that is they are probably concentrating on building the company?

I suppose something could drop at any moment once all of the enquiries have done their DD and tested the product to see if it meets their needs.

[ridicule] 25/5/2017 08:49

I know this is sounding like an old record from me, but I am becoming increasingly concerned that the tenor of debate here is increasingly focussed on why every other company involved in Graphene is rubbish and making false claims, while VRS have exceptionally exciting prospects. If true, this should produce unprecedented sales opportunities for VRS. The last hard sales news w.r.t Graphene that we have had from VRS was in December 2016. Conversely, there have been a number of announcements from other companies; Haydale AGM and others, including some in China.

I fully accept that Neil is rightly conservative when it comes to hype, but we need news of hard VRS graphene sales yesterday.