Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[cyberbub] 09/5/2017 10:58

Nice to hear of the '2000 other materials' but I am wary of VRS becoming a research organisation sucking up cash, rather than a commercial company making money for its shareholders... I think the management hopefully realise this...

[compoundup] 09/5/2017 10:41

I enjoyed a very interesting and worthwhile trip to Cambridge yesterday afternoon, getting to meet some but not all of the contributors to this BB who were present and would have liked to stay longer if time had permitted.

IMO the VRS-Cambridge Graphene Centre relationship is an extraordinary coup for both NR and the university:
• The department gets a channel to market through a (very) proactive commercial partner in VRS
• CGL get an inside track to deliver sample (or maybe batch) product in swift response to manufacturer enquiries coming into CGC in that product area (inks)
• The department gets to benefit from it's retained share in CGL as VRS sells product
• CGL is selling product that comes with certifiable specification (IIRC in the absence of standardisation - which is unlikely to happen for a while yet - not many producers have access to the kind of equipment that is operational in CGC and which is needed to measure what is being produced)
• It was obvious that he same can be said of the relationship with UoM. Mark Shepherd was present who was instrumental in the spin-out of 2D Tech from UoM. He is now at the sharp end in getting the new CGL ink production commissioned and delivering out of the department at Cambridge. He took part in the tour of the facilities together with one of the departmental research associates, demonstrating the technology and explaining about capacities, prospects for scaling-up, etc.

Other points:

The KLF - a couple of questions about TC were fielded by NR. That business is regarded as being part of the bread and butter of the group, together with AAC Cyroma and VTL which are providing stability while 2DTech and CGL probe blue skies. More than that TC is benefitting from the premises move. The one-off cost of the move and its the upheaval are being compensated by better efficiency. Evidently a competitor business has fallen away recently and new aerospace business has been secured. No numbers were mentioned. As to a "bugbear" or otherwise, the point is that it is the existing manufacturing businesses that are paying the bills.

A few here have mentioned NDAs. These are treated as having no value and none will be claimed. However, they have all come about through approaches from would-be customers - not the other way round. NR is focusing on distilling the enquiries into those which are likely to have the quickest route to market, if necessary at the expense of those industries - e.g. water purification - which are on a longer development track.

Much comment has been made here on how big or small the graphene platelets need to be. Prof Ferrari commented that the specification for a version of graphene needs to be adapted to its end-use. He was the one who said that standards are a long way off and that it is more important to find out what specification works for a specific product. Thereby the supplier needs to know some detail about the end-use to be able to derive the appropriate specification. The university's shareholding in CGL represents one way in which they can monetise the outcome of their research. They are incentivised to forward enquiries for specific skillsets to the most capable supplier - in this case ink - directly to CGL. NR and the team have demonstrated the ability to perform in a short timescale since the PrimaryBid fundraise. As has been related previously, they bought a machine, installed it and delivered into the order in a timescale that only entrepreneurial initiative can manage.

Bones - I also heard Prof Ferrari mention 2000 materials. I got the impression that graphene was the first one that has been turned from a mathematical prediction into a reality. Whether or not any or all of the others are worthwhile is something to excite future generations of scientists rather than be of immediate significance.

One slide in the presentation I found telling was the financial analysis of companies that have often been mentioned in the same context as VRS (- and largely dismissed on here by one person in particular who has put in the hours!). Of the 3 others chosen for comparison by NR, VRS stood way out in front on a simple calculation of mkt cap. divided by turnover giving a number in the low single figures. Clearly it's profit that matters more than turnover but I think Neill and Chris are more than aware of that.

I echo superg1's encouragement to anyone wanting to look deeper into VRS to go to these events. We were told there may be an investor event held at TC sometime in the future.

[phoenixs] 09/5/2017 09:58

john henry, what I find amusing to say the least are the comparative valuations given to other entities in the world of graphene compared to VRS. I think that I am correct in stating that VRS have a lower net cash burn than its "competitors", have far larger sales than its "competitors" and some time in the next year or so will begin to make money without graphene which its "competitors" would not be able to do.
If, and I would certainly take from yesterdays investors meeting WHEN one of the NDAs rsults in orders, the share price will rise as the market realises how far VRS have gone in respect of graphene production.

[john henry] 09/5/2017 09:25

Imho the market needs to see a contract before pushing higher.

[superg1] 09/5/2017 08:55

The KLF

Carbide has potential in it's own right it seems.

I has written it off as a chug along useful business to have but there are aspects they are picking up there which could prove lucrative.

If oil every sorts itself out then there is that aspect too.

Many go on about Asia as suppliers but it was rated in the case of Carbide many companies names imply can't provide the quality precision level needed.

One new part and new business appearing, first orders anticipated year end is for aerospace.

[superg1] 09/5/2017 08:13

TheKLF

As I keep saying the option is there to attend. VRS said they don't like to put NDAs in news as NDAs have no value. It's the work that goes on during an NDA that can convert to value at which point it becomes news.

As I have mentioned before other companies seem happy to talk big about who they are talking too and name them which perhaps defeats the NDA point.

On the flip Essie over the years I've watched shares fly on the back of rumours or confirmed company X is taking to a Mr Big. Just one company and they hang their hat on it and get highly excited.

It seems VRS are in NDAs with many and some very large ones.

VRS didn't chase them.

The message was they would rather work hard on dealing with those enquiries first than forming a team and chasing after further weaker numerous NDAs. They are run off their feet as it is and will work to add certain staff to assist.

In there words they won't fill a gap for the sake of it. It has to be the right person with the right skills/respect in industry etc.

[luckyorange] 09/5/2017 07:16

To put it another way , with respect, it is as if you are loading the gun and getting someone else to fire the bullets.

TC is going to be at breakeven which suggests that they have diversified and picked up other business not related to the oil industry. They are highly focussed on graphene at the moment but I don't think that they should put all their eggs in one basket until orders start to flow.

[luckyorange] 09/5/2017 07:00

Have you thought about talking to or meeting NR KLF? It is probably the best way to get your questions answered to satisfy your bugbears maybe?

[theklf] 09/5/2017 00:12

SG1 you talked about them mentioning NDAs and then go on to talk about 'named' NDAs. I am not sure how that works out. You either have an NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) or you don't. My understanding is that the whole point of the NDA is you don't disclose anything at all?

[john henry] 09/5/2017 00:11

Shavian OT, LPA connections systems formerly ( LPA Niphan systems) is a company in Saffron Walden that was pretty much on its knees a while back and is now thriving.

[theklf] 09/5/2017 00:05

Thank you to all those who attended and have reported back for the rest of us.
I appreciate that the event was mainly to show off the new Cambridge facilities but did anybody manage to tackle NR on my current bugbear of the TC side potentially detracting from focus on what looks like a graphene side about to explode and thus requiring total focus and commitment?

[hastings] 08/5/2017 22:22

Did you see the lab with the cement Superg1 ?

[superg1] 08/5/2017 22:20

Scruts

I was there all day and posted in breaks got back at 9pm having left about 5am.

Will add some more tomorrow. I too liked some of the lab stuff, stress sensor in particular along with the sound sensor and Smart phone sensors (all ink based).

[john henry] 08/5/2017 21:47

It has haven't heard it called LPA for a while

[skylite] 08/5/2017 21:45

Hello Scruts, I trust you are well? As always so soothing to read your posts, a real wordsmith; a rarity in this day and age.

Good health sir!

[hastings] 08/5/2017 21:29

Ah,nice place. Visited LPA a few times, been a very nice turnaround story.

[john henry] 08/5/2017 21:26

Saffron Walden when home from NZ

[john henry] 08/5/2017 21:24

Technicals, indicators showing signs for a new leg higher (30p)

[hastings] 08/5/2017 20:53

Hi John I'm in Histon, yourself?

[bones] 08/5/2017 20:45

Thoroughly enjoyed the visit and particularly the tour of the labs by the ludicrously gifted chemistry lad!Amazing ideas being worked on by the research team which is backed by millions in grants and sponsorship as well as University funding. They work on a lot more than just graphene but VRS potentially can benefit with their general patents licensed from the Uni.It seems graphene is but one product of the techniques, there are 2,000 other materials being worked on or researched. Did I hear that right?Amongst many things, we were shown a 3D printed shoe with a pressure sensor in the heel amongst many other prototypes or experimental creations. There were bendy strips that light up on response to sound and million pound microscopes that examine each individual graphene flake seeking to create uniformity.I am not qualified to understand how much this could benefit VRS directly in time but the pool of potential that the purchase of CGL has secured is staggering. Presumably a similar situation exists via UOM/2DTech?Also good to meet some people and Atoxyl in particular. Shame the weather prevented an airborne arrival but at least I can say I did the entire M25 this last two days!

[john henry] 08/5/2017 20:35

Hastings where abouts in Cambridge do you reside.

[john henry] 08/5/2017 20:33

Thank you for all the feedback, much appreciated.

[hastings] 08/5/2017 18:33

I would also like to thank the posters Superg1 etal, greatly appreciated.Although on my doorstep I was unable to attend as I was returning from a few days away on the South Coast.Certainly ties in with what I saw and heard a couple of months back though.I finally have my coverage in the June edition of Cambridge Business Mag so that can hopefully add in something to complement the other posters.

[spike_1] 08/5/2017 18:08

well said and seconded by me also!

Thank you gentlemen!
Scruts: I never cease to be impressed by your elequence and turn of phrase!

Just so sorry I couldn't make it today (snowed under with stuff relating to a CPO I'm involved with ;0(

Best wishes - Mike