Photonstar Led Share Discussion Threads

[gleach23] 03/10/2012 21:14

yes, thanks for highlighting these on CR's thread ic2....must admit I had a small punt prompted by your recommendation.

hi again battlebus...i think our portfolios must be getting more aligned by the day!

[battlebus2] 03/10/2012 21:00

Long term the share price will definitely double from here imv. 6th in the table then Paul.

[whufcpaul] 03/10/2012 20:31

Whats the thoughts on share price action from here, was going to jump on board yesterday but thought there might be a slight retrace today but again it pushed on strongly.

[battlebus2] 03/10/2012 17:57

Yes great to see the shareprice rise today :))

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 15:45

It is all contractual & above board. Local Authorities across the land use D&B Contracts every day. They (the Council) will issue a specifiction to several Main Contractors based on flow rates, lux levels, heating parameters, building fabric, building heat losses, heat gains, renewable energy for a set figure, unknown to teh Main Contractor, the Tenders are returned & generally the lowest figure is succeeful, now if the Main Contractors build costs go up through no fault of there own, the Main Contractor bares the cost, however, if the Main Contractor builds the school to the parameters set out for cheaper than their original Tender price they pocket the money. Not illegal, no back handers. You can specify to the nth degree, but if product a & b are exactly the same excpet the name on the front & product a is cheaper then product b, then product a will be used.

I could go on & on. I've just completed a huge warehouse based on this D&B contract. There is nothing immoral, or corrupt, it's not allowed, too many contracts at stake to be illegal.

When you going shopping, do you always buy the most expensive items you can, or do you shop around?

There is nothing more corrupt than the NHS, I'm currently working on a complete redesign of a ward in a local hospital that only 18 months was completely refurbished, because the department that the ward was origianlly used for has moved to a different hospital.

Exactly MRPHIL, you could probably install a complete house with GU10 50W dichroic downlights for £100, that's the downlight fitting & lamp (excluding installation costs), 1 dedicated LED fitting (not a retrofit lamp) will probably cost you that.

[mrphil] 03/10/2012 15:44

PSL will do very well to hang on to this business once the contractors & wholesalers get involved imho. In my experience housebuilders are notorious for going the cheapest possible route when it comes to the lighting, hence the hoards of cheap GU10 downlights you see installed so often. PSL have done a good job getting this "major UK housebuilder" to consider LED in the first place, but I know of one "major UK housebuilder" currently dictating a ridiculous low price on LED downlights which will result in the cheapest possible Chinese product getting installed. I have to agree with Scott1978 that the contractor only needs to worry about the first 12 months and with LED even the cheapest should just about make it through that period.

[clocktower] 03/10/2012 15:33

That I agree with Scott1978, which goes to show that if that is your line of work, then you should specify in greater detail if you are going to help prevent corruption, unless of course you are party to the immoral practice of relying on a back hander on the basis that you have not crossed the Ts and dotted the I`s in the detail. (I am not suggesting that you are - I use the term "you" in general terms)

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 14:14

Clocktower, it happens everyday in my line of work. It's called a D&B, Design & Build. If you specified a vehicle with 4 wheels, 1.9 diesel engine, DAB radio, CD player, SAT-NAV, electric windows, parking sensors & 4 doors, how many cars could you buy of differing values with that specification? Now if you were a company whose sole purpose is to make a profit, at what end of the pricing spectrum would you purchase the car from, bearing in mind you only have the above spec to buy from?

Now apply the same rules to lighting, you must light this room to 400lux with a uniformity of 0.8. That's it, we as designers only add a name to a fitting to assist in the Tender process, to ensure all sub-contractors price the same thing to ensure a fair Tender, once a contractor is successful, value engineering happens, another word for reducing costs but still delivering a fully working, operational building that acheives all BREEAM, CIBSE, British Standards, Building Regulations etc.

Obviously, the above only applies to D&B contracts & not full specification contracts.

[clocktower] 03/10/2012 13:51

LOL, I do not accept that at all Scott1978 - So if I sell you a Merc (that your company specified) and give you a Skoda and all is well for 12 months because you had no idea what they specified in the first place - you would be ok with it, had it done the job for 12 months, and be happy for me to have pocketed the extra profit. Come on pull the other one.

Still it is good to see the share price going up and some of the rise could be on the back of this thread today.

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 13:37

Thats it Clocktower, they are not sub-standard, just cheaper. Like buying a car, Audi's, VW's & Mercedes Benz are all quality vehicles, but you can get the same spec car maybe even better if you buy a Skoda, Hyundai, Kia, for alot cheaper, you just pay more for the name.

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 13:35

Only for the 1st 12 months. After that he's plain sailing!!

In a D&B Contract the Contractor only has to install to Bristish Standards & CIBSE Guidelines, now for example, a typical office requires 400lux, i specify a Thorlux fitting at £200 a unit, but the contractor may say I can get a fitting that will give the same light output but for £150 a unit. Yes he runs the risk of the unit failing, but he will just pass this onto the supplier/manufacturer of the fitting, if the unit is ok for the 1st 12 months he pockets the difference.

I've worked on jobs where main contractors have said they can build a school for £3mill & built it for £2-£2.5mill & pocket the differece they screw the sub-contractors down because they are desperate for work.

[clocktower] 03/10/2012 13:28

I accept what you say in part Scott1978 but are you saying you allow sub standard products to be swapped for specified product?

[pugugly] 03/10/2012 13:19

Scott1978:> But if the unit installed by the contractor (i.e. the different and cheaper product) fails or causes significant problems is he liable for full remediation ?

Many years ago we installed copper pipe from Yorkshire copper (from memory) which had not been correctly manufactured and perforated - Youkshire not only had to replace the pipe but also pay all associated costs including full strip out of all pipework, reinstallation and redecoration.

Very dangerous (imo)for the contractor to ignore the specification if something goes wrong after the installation - if installed to specification he has a defince. Does not the risk then fall back on the specifier ?

[someuwin] 03/10/2012 13:02

Good to see the share price up a bit.

Still very cheap imo.

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 12:47

Euclid5, they have signed a contract for new houses, but the majority of the housing stock in the UK isn't new, in fact most of the housing stack i would suggest is pre-World War II. My house is over 100 years old & I'm in the middle of a terrace with street after street of terracing.

Clocktower, I've yet to work on a D&B job where the contractor hasn't installed a different & cheaper product to what i have specified, it's common sense, if you can install something that is cheaper & does the same job why would you install the more expensive version?

[clocktower] 03/10/2012 11:57

Scott1978 - With respect I question this last statement to a degree:

"So if you are a developer, especially in a Design & Build contract where the Main/Electrical Contractor has the final say on what fittings are installed (based soley on cost as they make more profit if cheaper fittings are installed), then they will always go for the cheaper product, regardless of any enrgy saving or low/no maintenance costs as the Main Contractor doesn't have to worry about these future costs."

Those that specify are becoming more involved in the process and will not allow most main contractors to select products that show them the greatest profit, in addition many jobs are undertaken on a cost plus basis these days.

I am sure all posters here are gratefull for your knowledge and input and my comments are not to be taken as any attack on your postings - but are just another point of view to be considered.

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 11:47

Euclid, as long as they keep there product development & manufacturing base in the UK & not ship it out to the far east where there are quality issues.

Be careful though, it's going to be a long time before LED lighting is the norm in residential housing, people are to used to the old fashioned light bulb!!

Also, the industry keep spouting on about energy saving etc. but in alot of instances where we've specified LED lighting not only do you not get the light output as stated in product specification brochures meaning you have to increase the amount of LED light fittings compared to compact fluorescents (CFL's) to achieve teh required lux levels, but also the LED fittings themselves are sometimes 100% more expensive than their comparable CFL fittings.

So if you are a developer, especially in a Design & Build contract where the Main/Electrical Contractor has the final say on what fittings are installed (based soley on cost as they make more profit if cheaper fittings are installed), then they will always go for the cheaper product, regardless of any enrgy saving or low/no maintenance costs as the Main Contractor doesn't have to worry about these future costs.

Not in my experience Euclid5, the Chinese just copy & spew out cheap imitations, i can give you an example, we specified a retro fit LED downlight from a Chinese company called Truwin, to replace 50W GU10 dichroic downlights, the type you can buy in B&Q 4 for £2.50 etc, we based our design on the fittings information given to us from their Sales Rep. When the fittings arrived from China, not only were they alot longer then the comparable 50W GU10 lamp, meaning tehy stuck out from below the ceiling line, they also were the wrong colour temperature (3000K, 4000K etc.) meaning we had to install the traditional 50W GU10 anyway.

Havells-Sylvania manufacture a 7.5W retrofit direct replacement for the GU10, same length with different colour temperatures & output angles available, but they cost £20 each!! You'd have to have your lights on an awful lot to get any sort of return/payback on your investment @ £20 a pop!!

[euclid5] 03/10/2012 11:43

Scott - don't forget the large Chinese co's don't really want to deal with the GE - Philips of this world - if a small niche LEd co can offer similar LEd lighting & techniques they will go with them most times - plus get any uplift in the stock price if they part fund them along the way knowing small tidler like PSl will be a big daddy one day -

I heard this from a very good source who runs there own small non listed LED co

[someuwin] 03/10/2012 10:55

Cheers Scott - you obviously know the industry.

With LED lighting accounting for less than 3% of the $70bn global lighting market and some predictions of 80% by the end of the decade, I think PSL should do very well over the next few years.

Dialight has shown the sort of exceptional growth that is possible.

[euclid5] 03/10/2012 10:31

Scott , don't forget they have a large contract in Chine & i hear from good sources in this industry they will get more from the chinese - if you can deliver then here's more work for you - so far just over a £10m mkt capt

thanks

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 10:18

Yep, got their product catalogue open in front of me as I type.

I also did my thesis @ uni on LED's, my tutor was a Prof. Ken Board who set up Enfis many years ago. They were based in an office in Technium I in Swansea's SA1 development.

To be honest i think they are way behind with respect to the range of products they offer compared to the big lighting manufacturers ie. Thorn, Thorlux etc. but obviously these bigger companies have larger R&D dept's.

But Photonstar will do well for corridor/WC/atria/Reception type areas.

[someuwin] 03/10/2012 09:41

Cheers Scott. have you any insight on their products?

[scott1978] 03/10/2012 08:48

I'll be looking to specify these on a big school job we have in Llandovery, might help the share price for you lot invested here.