Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[shavian] 27/2/2017 12:45

Where did they get their graphene?

[rogerbridge] 27/2/2017 10:22

Nice motor.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 10:13

I thought I'd hunt for cars and graphene.

I'n not sure how I missed this one, just looking now.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 09:59

I'm not sure if this was posted before. It was part for the CALM Exeter meeting involving Victrex. ( a reminder anyway if it was posted).

As a result of the first event, many of these issues are being addressed. With funding from Innovate UK, CALM and a consortium of seven other organisations led by Victrex, are exploring ways to create affordable, new high performance polymers and composite materials.

Victrex, a leading global provider of polymer solutions, is developing ground-breaking new grades of high performance polyaryletherketone (PAEK) polymers specifically designed for AM for use in the aerospace industry. The new Victrex PAEK materials will be tailored for laser sintering, filament fusion and new technologies. such as the Airbus patented AM process ‘ThermoMELT.’

Airbus Group Innovations highlighted its advances in addressing recyclability and process reliability through its new ThermoMELT process, Versarien Advanced Composites presented its work with CALM on innovative new Graphene-PAEK nanocomposites, Indmatec, pioneers of extrusion deposition printers for PEEK, discussed its equipment manufacturing developments and CALM gave an update on recent research projects funded by EPSRC, Innovate UK and DSTL, demonstrating the rapidly growing knowledge now available about both materials and processes.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 09:09

Btw

Anyone that wants to chat should consider the Investor show on April 1st. It looks like they will be there.

Plenty go to such shows and it can be useful to talk to many CEOs and get a feel for the BS or not.

[luckyorange] 27/2/2017 08:46

I think that sometimes what they have on offer could be porkies lol some always buy on a Friday afternoon because people don't want to be in over the weekend it's usually the cheapest option.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:43

Lucky

I think the fobs were .1% by weight as it was simply a demonstrator. Dispersion as you can see was superb as it turned the original white sample to black at a .1% loading.

With that in mind carbon fibre would be about 3% loadings into the resin (20 gram per kg of resin).

So I'd like to know how much resin is used per square metre of typical carbon fibre on body work etc.

EG VRS have said under 1kg in that last order but a kg would do 50kgs or resin. So how much carbon fibre can be created from 50 kgs of resin.

[luckyorange] 27/2/2017 08:36

The one thing that is hard to understand is what will 1g cover in surface area of a product to create the claimed improvements.

I suppose and wonder if NR can say i.e. the key fobs that he handed out , how much is in there ?

Anyone know?

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:30

To add to the previous post about scale up and numbers

That's why I go on about modules and scale up options. As I understand it they are on the smallest scale presently and multipliers kick in using same staff numbers.

Being an engineer you will know the theory of scale up v actual scale up. Currently I believe a module is on it's lowest scale and the production is only limited by how many modules you have which means large scale production is viable.

The next step up (open day questions) is 4 fold per unit if it works (it should).

So if you go from the original single module at 8 hours to 4 of the next module up and 16 hours. The production rise is 32 fold and costs come down. On paper that's about 15-20 kg per week under 10 layer

I didn't ask about any module above that.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:15

Having done the digging I'n surprised to find Peel are off the offer and on the bid. The digging only took me through Wednesday.

Perhaps the one supply has already gone

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:10

Over the weekend on further digging it added to my suspicions about one supply which should be on it's last stretch this week.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:04

On the 100 grams I believe they can do that on the few layer (under 5) now so there would be 5-10 layer too.

£25k would be a bit steep for bulk orders and I have the last one nearer the £100 per gram mark.

That isn't necessarily to do with costs but the rarity of quality few layer graphene.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 08:00

DR A

re

In terms of costs, it sounds like £25k of graphene (100grams) can be made in 1 day by 2 people going on previous quotes. Does anyone know the capital cost of the machine? If this can be automated so one person can run several machines, then there is clearly a route to cost effective material, and with estimates of 54,000 tonnes being sold per year by 2024, the potential for VRS could be huge.


Yes but I'm not posting it here.

[shavian] 27/2/2017 07:52

Lucky, if there is an application for graphene in KERS, another potentially huge future market opens up. KERS Technology accumulates energy while a vehicle is at speed and slowing down, and then uses it to boost acceleration.

So, vehicles which do a lot of stopping and starting have an efficiency gain to be made from using KERS. The application to electric busses is obvious, but it's also being looked at by designers of railway trains and even e-bikes.

[superg1] 27/2/2017 07:49

Dr Andrew

Glad to see you are still around.

Do you see the Boullier comment in the watch launch where he said they were using it for strengthening and as a layer coating for heat dissipation.

I suspect they have used it in the car but obviously won't say that F1 give nothing away. With your extra info then yes it seems to be a no brainer and I have a fair idea who turned up at the NGI asking about graphene for that use.

On a further note I believe Mclaren are potentially not alone.

[luckyorange] 27/2/2017 07:24

Good stuff DrAndrew, a weight reduction of up to 20% is possible in other top end cars so I do wonder how that would cross over to aerospace?

The cost of the machine is important and it looks , by your figures, the more they produce then the cheaper they can produce it. I believe from posts on here they are using a small machine which works and if it goes bigger it may not work although in theory it should. Bet superg knows the cost lol

Edit: DrAndrew, do you think that they will use graphene in some way for the KERS system?

[dr andrewd] 26/2/2017 23:04

I have been in VRS for a couple of years and met the board and saw early graphene improved plastic samples before investing. I am also an engineer.

In terms of F1 car weight, all F1 teams try to make the lightest possible car. They then use ballast to achieve the minimum weight. The ballast is placed on the floor of the car which keeps the centre of gravity low and makes the car corner quicker. The ballast can also be moved forwards or rearwards to improve handling. Any way to reduce the weight of the car will be explored with teams willing to spend 100,000s to save a kilo. Enhanced composites with better matrix characteristics from graphene would clearly be of interest to the teams. There will be certain composite components where the matrix rather than the carbon fibre limits the performance of the component in certain areas, and so further significant weight reduction could be possible making the addition of graphene a no brainer. Whether the real advantage is sufficient to justify its use in all components would need to be determined.

In terms of wider composite applications:
- there will be some applications where cost will be the defining factor so adding graphene must result in the amount of other materials being reduced to give a cost advantage.
- some applications such as aerospace, weight is very important as that directly affects fuel efficiency etc, so additional cost of graphene can be absorbed due to reduced running costs etc
- other applications will be about ultimate strength, with graphene enabling composites to be used more efficiently for very highly stressed applications.
- this is in addition to all the other uses of graphene eg. heat shields etc.

Graphene at a sensible cost clearly has the potential for many many applications.

In terms of costs, it sounds like £25k of graphene (100grams) can be made in 1 day by 2 people going on previous quotes. Does anyone know the capital cost of the machine? If this can be automated so one person can run several machines, then there is clearly a route to cost effective material, and with estimates of 54,000 tonnes being sold per year by 2024, the potential for VRS could be huge.

[1madmarky] 26/2/2017 21:21

I was thinking in the direction of space vehicles and high speed aircraft having a use for the incredible heat conduction

[shavian] 26/2/2017 16:37

Jointers post on the ice cube brilliantly illustrates the heat conductivity aspect of graphene - I had not clocked the significance of that. Will the wonders of this stuff never end?

[superg1] 26/2/2017 14:24

Nice posts re the ink Serratia. Anyone interested should read the links you posted.

Now I understand what a passive Rfid is and I see no reason why they can't replace bar codes. A barrier is 10 cents for passive Rfids and about 1 cent for bar codes.

The tracking looks great.

EG

In theory you can track the stock coming in simply by it passing through a set device, then what goes into the warehouse, cold storage etc. When it leaves there and goes on the shelves, then when it goes through the tills and out of the door.

Bags or a trolley of shopping could be scanned in one hit. The on exit (in theory) you could have a people scanner to control store theft. Scanners on all exits would help solve loss of stock via the staff.

I can see that helping considerably on stock monitoring and ordering as the warehouse level do to shelf stacking could be identified a lot earlier in the cycle and all automated with instant updating.

That's just Rfids, but obviously if it made bar code replacement viable then the market would be many multiples of the current Rfid market.

They stated the actual ink is 25 times cheaper.

'Silver-based inks cost £1000 or more per kilogram, whereas this new graphene ink formulation would be 25 times cheaper. Additionally, silver is not recyclable, while graphene and other carbon materials can easily be recycled.'

[jointer13] 26/2/2017 11:20

amazing what a bit of graphene can do

[luckyorange] 26/2/2017 09:56

Interesting what you learn by surfing the web but it is a bit hit and miss and takes time, just got to get the search criteria right.

The evidence from the above posts suggest that graphene is being used by the suppliers of components to F1 cars, the melting point of graphene is extremely high, if it's thrown into the sun or lasered then it melts, that makes it very useful for high temperature moving parts.

What I couldn't find out was whether the FIA allows it in the specs, feel sure that they do but it's a 'secret' at the moment.

Did like the cooling tower reference and the comments of the people on the job, I think someone posted with a 3D printer down time can be reduced significantly within all industrial applications, but that would probably depend on the size of the part required.

I hope NR's government friends realise the value and importance of supporting a first mover in the market.... time will tell !