Ilika Share Discussion Threads

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 11:23

This is a useful reminder of where they were a couple of years ago:

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 11:07

Toyota have royalty free rights over everything they've done with IKA, and IKA retain rights to exploit with other customers, including Toyota rivals. However, it appears from the little I've read that other Auto mfrs are ploughing their own furrow in solid state, which is perhaps a reflection of IKA IP strength and value.

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 11:02

hb, excellent, that's very helpful. Hadn't realised that you were at the investor day at their "factory". You might recall me pressing them then on my doubts in relation to series stacking, although my concerns were based upon how they made connections without introducing increased leakage paths. The series connection stack was a key USP, but it may well be possible to come up with a decent engineered solution to larger externally connected cells. Of course they're limited in resource, and maybe the resource isn't always focused in the right direction [that's perhaps unfair, as it's easier to say with hindsight]. Management also needs to be more open, which is a difficulty of being a listed company involved in cutting edge development.

[horneblower] 26/7/2017 10:44

BG,
I too remember that their "roadmap" was a progression from micro-cells to phone/laptop, to automotive/grid storage. This was from about two and a half years ago when they held investor days down at Southampton.

The idea was that having already made a working prototype of a solid state battery which had excellent qualities, it was only a matter of time until they produced a "double-stacked" cell which would be the start of the journey towards larger and larger batteries.

They claim to have produced a double-stack cell but admitted that it was extremely difficult technically since it meant laying down new layers on top of the first cell at very high temperatures (400 degC, I think). This often had the effect of destroying the first cell. When asked what progress was being made on this, they reluctantly admitted that they could not spare time on the chip machine for this research because it was fully utilised on the Stereax line (for customer product development).

They only have one, six-inch chip machine. They were asked about getting another one. It seems this is not on the cards.

The tie up with Toyota MAY produce some income if Toyota use any of IKA's tech, and that's IF they ever produce solid state, Lithium batteries. Although Toyota is one of the biggest car makers in the world I think it unlikely they will ever owe Ilika any royalties on THIS technology...(but maybe on some other tech).

The main problem is that Ilika's method of manufacturing batteries does not lend itself to double stacking and is therefore unlikely ever to be used for anything but the smallest cells, but hey, there may be a vast market for just that!

When the media comes up with a better name than the purile "Internet of Things", we might make some progress. In the meantime, Ilika has an excellent product that it is waiting for the world to produce a market for.

I still hold IKA shares.

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 10:44

OK, thanks. Will look into this further, but my suspicion (having not held or been involved for some time) is that the direct series stacked connection didn't work as they expected. I couldn't see how it would, however, I don't think that's necessarily a dead-end in terms of larger applications.

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 09:55

Rogk - wasn't asking for confirmation of whether he was correct in his assertion - just wanted a bit more detail around what was said. I understand they've quite a bit of focus on micro-medical/industrial, but is there something they've found and commented upon that rules out larger scale.

They've c.£5m in the bank in April. They do have a prolific burn rate, that needs to be reduced, but a further raise will not be a significant issue if they are gaining traction, and they do operate in just about the most attractive sector currently. They are clearly struggling to make the most of the opportunity however!

[briangeeee] 26/7/2017 09:27

horneblower (haven't seen that name since Burren!) - interested in your comment about the batteries only being destined for micro-cells. What was said at the investor meeting in that regard?

Previously the Co have talked about a progression from micro-cells to phone/laptop, to automotive/grid storage. In recent results they seemed to indicate that this technology had only ever been thought of as being for micro. That seemed to make sense, as I've always felt the production opex and capex costs were too high. Did they give some more detail around this area?

The recent Toyota publicity (but not a formal Toyota announcement) indicates that they're serious about using the same family of solid state batteries for automotive in 2022. While five years away, it's not that far off and they've need to have proper scale prototypes working in the next couple of years, and would need to have a very clear vision of the technology and costs NOW.

So, anyway, interested in what was said.

[horneblower] 26/7/2017 09:17

You obviously weren't at the recent investor presentation.

That being said, there is no reason that Ilika's micro batteries won't produce a sustainable business.

[tullynessle] 26/7/2017 09:07

Ilika

Solid State Batteries

Toyota Motor Corporation (Battery Research Division) uses Ilika’s High Throughput Physical Vapour Deposition (HT-PVD) Technology for Development of Batteries for Next Generation Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles

Requirement:

Battery technology is the most widely used method for storing low-carbon portable energy, currently mainly in consumer electronics but also to an increasing extent for hybrid and electric vehicles. The current market size is $8bn per annum and expected to grow to $32bn by 2018.

In order to deliver the fuel economy benefits of hybrid and electric vehicles, new batteries are required which can store energy in a small volume, but can also charge and discharge rapidly while remaining safe.

Solid state batteries are capable of delivering these benefits and their advancement is dependent on the development of highly conductive, stable electrolytes. A rapid means to explore candidate electrolyte materials is of great interest to battery manufacturers.

Solution:

Since 2008, Ilika has been working with Toyota on the development of novel battery chemistries that can fulfil these objectives and has since filed 9 patents on some of the novel materials and production methods that have been jointly invented. Toyota has sold by far the most hybrid vehicles through the success of its Prius model and is regarded by the industry as the leader in this sector.

Using the Ilika High Throughput Physical Vapour Deposition (HT-PVD) platform, Ilika and Toyota’s Battery Research Division, have worked on a joint development project to synthesise, characterise and optimise thin film, solid state lithium ion electrolyte materials to develop the next generation of batteries for EVs and PHEVs.

IKA document continues......

[horneblower] 26/7/2017 08:36

Sadly, Ilika's batteries are not destined to be anything other than specialised micro-cells.

[kwizza] 24/7/2017 08:53

Maybe of interest

[clives] 14/7/2017 00:40

It's easy to take that quote out of context if we are not carefull...... it states

"Brexit risk"

The Group has reviewed the potential impact of Brexit on the risks identified above

(In other words - 'commercial risk, financial risk, intelectual property risk, dependence on senior mangement and key staff')

and believes that whilst intellectual property risk will remain largely unaffected, there may be an impact in the future regarding the Group's ability to attract and retain highly skilled individuals.

(That's no surprise every company I know has that problem)

The Group is alert to and continuously reviewing this potential risk

(i.e. all of those above)

and formulating its response at the appropriate time.

I would be very worried if the management team weren't doing this!

so I ask what is the problem? doesn't seem anything out of the ordinary to me. I mean take a risk assessment with say, for example handling open blades "open blades are dangerous and there is the potential to cause serious injury if not handled correctly" that's a statement of fact we have to look out for the risk... it doesnt mean I'm going to walk away and stab myself, however I still have to do everything to mitigate that risk.

So the company is being responsible in recognising that risk, is alert to it and should it happen it will have plans in place to deal with it.

[skyracer] 12/7/2017 13:21

I see one of their commercial partners is Murata. Hmm Interesting. Seems a lot of intrinsic value built up in Ilika now which could be rewarded in the long term. Still speculative of course. The section on Principal Risks and Uncertainties just contains the usual sensible caveats you would find in any diligent plc Annual Report imo. Basic operating cashburn running at £3m per year, if they can keep this under control two or even one modest licensing deal could wipe this deficit out. Worth tucking away a few in the pension at 36p.

[pj 1] 11/7/2017 22:54

Seriously, I have met a number of posters from the BB over the years who are much more educated than I!

''The Group is alert to and continuously reviewing this potential risk and formulating its response at the appropriate time.''

What does that mean? They are formulating a response currently, or there is a risk they will have to formulate a response? I cant make head nor tail of it.

[kenbos] 11/7/2017 12:53

Doesn't look good no matter how you look at it

[pj 1] 11/7/2017 10:10

lol, too true!

[alanrussell] 11/7/2017 10:01

It means excuse to grant cheap share options

[pj 1] 11/7/2017 09:56

''Dependence on senior management and key staff
Certain members of staff are considered vital to the successful development of the business. Failure to continue to attract and retain such highly skilled individuals could adversely affect operational results.
The Group seeks to reduce this risk by offering appropriate incentives to staff through competitive salary packages and participation in long-term share option schemes.
Brexit risk
The Group has reviewed the potential impact of Brexit on the risks identified above and believes that whilst intellectual property risk will remain largely unaffected, there may be an impact in the future regarding the Group's ability to attract and retain highly skilled individuals.
The Group is alert to and continuously reviewing this potential risk and formulating its response at the appropriate time.''

Hmmmm, it reads to me that they may have staff already leaving? What the hell does the last paragraph mean ''The Group is alert to and continuously reviewing this potential risk and formulating its response at the appropriate time.'' ?

[mrphil] 11/7/2017 09:31

Well the market doesn't seem keen on the results!

[big7ime] 03/7/2017 08:46

And their relationship with IKA I think they'll be using their IP