Harland & Wolff Share Discussion Threads

[ijamlon] 18/7/2024 10:28

Riverstone could simply put in the 'commercial' 20% and then use the whole guaranteed loan amount to pay back its debt. It could then lose the 20% and still be mega quids in.

[tomtrudgian] 17/7/2024 14:54

Comments from a retired auditor, not a shareholder:
1/ It was always difficult to judge figures auditors were given, but did we care more about our fees and not being sued? Family companies wanted the lowest profits to reduce tax. PLC’s the highest to justify their share price.
2/ Different now with companies that can only be assessed over several years, like litigation funders and H&W.
3/ There are still a ludicrous number of auditing bodies, and in some jurisdictions none. The main ones are the International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) and the Generally Agreed Accounting Principles (GAAP). The former have required IFRS 15 since 1918. The US GAAP do not, but their SEC require quarterly accounts.
3/ So what is IFRS 15? Well it hstandard

[loglorry1] 17/7/2024 09:31

It's a zero and not coming back. Just not sure how long it will take to enter administration. Clearly Riverstone will own it all and it will contine to trade so jobs will be by and large ok. JW hopefully booted out but who knows.

I would guess shorts paid out in full within 6 months and longs get zero.

Hard to know what cash burn is but probably high and I bet their creditors/suppliers are doing all they can to limit losses. They might put HARL into admin but Riverstone is secured lender so it wont help them much.

[owenski] 17/7/2024 09:27

Good old blobbyaxe still keeping the deluded faith.

Interviews with Labour this morning, pre- King's speech, reaffirms they are not funding anything that hasn't been agreed in their manifesto.

They intend to be fiscally responsible - at least for now anyway - it's a given they wont be pouring money into debt black holes just because a few BB nutjobs are under water on ill informed punts.

[jaknife] 16/7/2024 21:51

bobaxe1,

I fear that that is an old quote. This is tomorrow’s FT:

”UK ministers set to reject £200mn loan backing for Titanic maker Harland & Wolff

Labour government said to have decided granting debt guarantee would be ‘deeply irresponsible’”



Including:

“… the new Labour government has decided that to sign-off the guarantee would be an inappropriate use of public funds, according to people close to the situation.“

JakNife

[bobaxe1] 16/7/2024 21:41

"Harland & Wolff is aware that the new ministers are in the process of being briefed by civil servants on our case," the spokesperson said. "We have proposed a reworked deal at the standard 80% guaranteed level, that has been awarded to hundreds of other companies, and look forward to hearing the government's response.

[p-m] 16/7/2024 19:15

maybe but then again... warships will be built in Spain.. hmmm

[ijamlon] 16/7/2024 17:18

FT confirms that there will be no bailout. Nail in coffin. Sorry shareholders, you should be extremely angry with the way you have been strung along and rinsed by the management for their personal gain.

[owenski] 15/7/2024 20:49

They don't need HW to deliver the Navy contract, the Spanish contractor can do it without them. It was always a foolish move to award elements to a company that's already been bankrupt and with no guarantee that the new iteration would be any better.

I notice all the ramping nut jobs have finally shut up.

[john mcinnes wood] 15/7/2024 19:25

Sinking into the abyss, interest on Riverstone £1.5m a month, shall we say wages £4m a month, Scilly ferry still not running, no sign of any new contracts. A very poor RNS this morning leaves the shareholders clinging on the life raft, the next wave and you will all be washed away.

[ijamlon] 15/7/2024 15:51

The most likely return on this share before the end of the year is -100%

[ijamlon] 15/7/2024 15:46

The grim reaper is standing right outside the door now...Reeves warned by civil servants against bailing out Titanic shipbuilderBy Matt Oliver, Industry Editor, Szu Ping Chan(Telegraph)Rachel Reeves has been warned against rescuing the struggling shipyard that built the Titanic amid concerns that taxpayer cash risks ending up in the hands of Wall Street financiers.The Chancellor is weighing up whether to approve support for Belfast-based Harland & Wolff, which otherwise risks being unable to deliver a £1.6bn Navy contract.Harland, which operates four UK yards and employs more than 1,000 workers, is seeking a £200m loan guarantee that would allow it to restructure a crippling debt pile.But in a fresh blow to the company, Whitehall sources confirmed Treasury officials have advised Ms Reeves that a bailout would be fraught with risk for the Government.They have warned the support risks falling foul of post-Brexit state aid rules, risking a clash with the European Union, while there are also concerns about taxpayer cash being used to pay off the company's Wall Street lenders.Harland & Wolff is based in Northern Ireland where businesses fall under the Windsor Framework, meaning ministers could be forced to seek permission from Brussels for a subsidy deal.Experts have also warned that such rules become stricter when dealing with a struggling company, potentially making attempts to intervene even more sensitive.It means Ms Reeves will be forced to overrule civil servants if she wants to push through the rescue of Harland & Wolff, leaving the decision vulnerable to a legal challenge.At the same time, Harland's ability to deliver a massive support ship for the Royal Navy is also in doubt after bosses warned it may struggle to carry out large contracts without a rescue deal.The warning to Ms Reeves emerged on Friday as the crisis-hit company also missed a self-imposed deadline to publish its accounts.Harland's shares, which are listed on London's junior stock exchange, have been suspended since July 1 after the company's auditors refused to sign off its books.Bosses previously reassured shareholders that they expected the dispute to be resolved and the accounts to be published last week.But on Friday a person close to the company admitted that target would not be met, with discussions still ongoing with auditors. The audited accounts are now expected to be published this week, they added.In their advice to Ms Reeves, civil servants reiterated concerns previously laid out to her predecessor, Jeremy Hunt, in the weeks and months before the general election, when cross-government talks took place to find a way to help the company.Officials have repeatedly stressed concerns about state aid rules, while warning of the moral hazard of accepting financial risk that would normally be borne by the company's private sector creditors.As revealed by The Telegraph in May, the threat of a legal challenge has already been made clear by the Isle of Scilly Steamship Group (ISSG), which has warned it will oppose any rescue package on the grounds that it would unfairly benefit a rival ferry service Harland is trying to launch in the Scilly Isles.John Wood, Harland's chief executive, has insisted that the ferry venture is separate from the rest of the business. He also told The Telegraph he was "100pc" confident the shipbuilder would survive, even without taxpayer help.According to unaudited accounts, Harland's losses narrowed from £71m to £43m in 2023, but the company's debt interest payments soared from £12m to £18m, equivalent to a fifth of its total sales.Since last year, the company has extended a borrowing facility with New York-based private equity fund Riverstone, its main lender, from $35m to $115m. Its net debt stands at more than £92m.Harland must repay the Riverstone facility by the end of this year.A spokesman for Harland & Wolff declined to comment. The Treasury declined to comment.

[htrocka2] 15/7/2024 12:13

....and there's more.

[skinny] 15/7/2024 07:01

Oh dear :-

[john mcinnes wood] 13/7/2024 09:38

loafofbread - Why positive when JW said the accounts would be published the week starting 8th July 2024? HARL shareholders will soon be an extinct breed.

[loafofbread] 12/7/2024 18:36

No after hours news dump so a positive in my view.

[terminator101] 12/7/2024 09:34

No accounts huh gerbils. #shocker Does anyone believe that the new administration is prepared to pour more money into the debt black hole?

[supearich] 11/7/2024 12:59

This Business's Final Results to late last year will have been readily available for months.

The Auditors, contending how to correctly represent Revenue along with the impact of that on the rest of the Accounts, will have been saying "this is how your Accounts look when our proposed approach is applied"... possibly along with various versions depending on a range of treatments of the Revenue.

As the unaudited Accounts were readily available last week and the Business stated a way forward had already been agreed with Auditors, I believe a version of full audited accounts will also have been readily available... they've been at it for months after all !!!!

I've sold on the basis that the deliberate delay to presenting Accounts for many months, timing everything to align with the Election & a potential/likely change in Government (and sentiment towards this Business) has been nothing but disingenuous shenanigans, with a great likelihood of complete failure now imminent.

Good Luck if you're still not getting it !!

p.s. the so-called "Unaudited Preliminary Results" MUST actually be a version of the actual audited Accounts, with very, very, little difference between them otherwise they're a DELIBERATE FABRICATION ! The suspension of trading was avoidable and has been DELIBERATELY CONTRIVED !!

[skinny] 11/7/2024 12:28

Clickable archive :-)

[loglorry1] 11/7/2024 12:26

hxxps://archive.ph/4FrGF archived version ;-)

[mcbull] 11/7/2024 12:13

The story made it to todays FT.



One industry figure said the statement “almost feels like a veiled threat . . . but there’s nothing to say those Treasury concerns have gone away and nothing to suggest [chancellor] Rachel Reeves will be bullied into acting quickly”. ;

It had been handed part of a £1.6bn Royal Navy contract for three new support ships as part of a Spanish-led consortium.Its unaudited results showed an operating loss of £24.7mn for 2023, and H&W said it is aiming to publish the audited results later this month.

One person close to the company said this week the business is “continuing very positive talks with the government and are confident we will have a resolution soon”.

The government declined to comment, citing “commercial sensitivities”.