Harland & Wolff Share Discussion Threads

[terminator101] 22/5/2024 13:51

Why did Richie dodge the question on the ukef guarantee at pmq's ?

[blackhorse23] 18/5/2024 08:11

fall into liquidation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c72p081lwpvo.amp

[terminator101] 17/5/2024 17:29

https://www.accountancyage.com/2015/05/19/ship-renovator-jailed-following-1-7m-vat-fraud/?amp=1What was honest Johns role in this?

[datos] 17/5/2024 11:14

The seniors board today awash with Kevin Jones and letters to The Standards Commissioner , good luck with that but he hasn’t actually done anything illegal. Some should stick to writing the Hansard minutes because their shipbuilding knowledge is zilch

[loglorry1] 17/5/2024 10:36

What's lazy about it? I assume you mean they are lazy because you don't agree with what they are telling you and it's not what John Wood has told you?

[oakville] 17/5/2024 08:37

Looks as though the lazy journalism has stuck and starting to look like 'no smoke without fire'

[loglorry1] 17/5/2024 08:31

So if there are other willing, well capitalised contractors willing to build the ships in Belfast why doesn't the Gov just use them rather than risk £200m of tax payers money?

The bulls will say that they don't own the Belfast docks required.

Problem is that Riverstone effectively own the docks because HARL can't repay them so they can just sell them or lease them to whoever wants the contract.

[loglorry1] 16/5/2024 12:43

"Well Loggers and Jakoff you gonna look a right pair of Deramping Doughnuts if the government does indeed allow the loan guarantee."

Well if that happens then - I'll certainly admit I'm wrong. I don't think that scenario is impossible but I give it a very low %.

If they do bail out the shareholders, and Riverstone by backing a loan then the doors of Whitehall will be besieged by others looking for cheap loans for their failed indebted companies.

[loglorry1] 16/5/2024 12:41

"Yes, I would propose that the government then pumps in fresh equity. Do you have a different proposal?"

I just don't think modern governments like owning small engineering companies. Big nationalisations sometimes happen when in the public interest e.g. to keep water flowing into peoples sinks or banks able to lend but otherwise I'm not so sure.

A private market solution is possible. Someone would buy them for £1 if the debt was all written off for example especially if at that point the Gov was happy to back the loans associated only with the battleship work.

There's a deal to be done but it involved Riverstone taking a hit and someone new owning it. Obviously current equity gets wiped out.

[jaknife] 16/5/2024 11:56

John Henry,

You should ask around, there are people here, on ADVFN, that have been in the room at the same time as both of us.

And FWIW, I will be in these rooms for Wed and Thu next week:



Feel free to come and find me in the bar, I will happily buy you a pint to drown your sorrows.

JakNife

[john henry] 16/5/2024 11:50

Well Loggers and Jakoff you gonna look a right pair of Deramping Doughnuts if the government does indeed allow the loan guarantee.
Or should i say Doughnut as every man and his Dog know you are in fact the same poster under a different a guise. It is really quite pathetic.

[jaknife] 16/5/2024 11:20

loglorry1,

"The big problem with that JN is they need new money. They have a massive payroll of 1500 people and if it were nationalised that would then need to be funded by the state. I doubt the Gov would want to take on all that hassle."

Yes, I would propose that the government then pumps in fresh equity. Do you have a different proposal?

You have a quandary, how to keep the yards open, the jobs protected and ensure that the building of the FSS vessels happens. Someone has to inject some cash but the current balance sheet is hopeless. What do you propose as a solution?

JakNife

[mikeh30] 16/5/2024 11:05

What in the missing payroll payments is going on here today?

[loglorry1] 16/5/2024 10:50

The big problem with that JN is they need new money. They have a massive payroll of 1500 people and if it were nationalised that would then need to be funded by the state. I doubt the Gov would want to take on all that hassle.

[jaknife] 16/5/2024 10:40

If I were the UK government I would nationalise the ship yards.

If they were to pay a fair price to HARL then they should pay about £25m, which is about the total value of the fixed assets. That is materially south of the total debt (about $100m but probably more with interest) and hence the debt providers are going to lose about 70%. Shareholders would get zero.

Given that the sale would leave HARL insolvent then they would need to so something like a pre-pack administration.

JakNife

[loglorry1] 16/5/2024 10:09

It really does look on the brink of bankruptcy. The FT article today suggest they are not going to make payroll.

[jaknife] 16/5/2024 10:03

loglorry1,

If you look at the last annual report, which was to 31 Dec 2022:



then note 14 tells you (page 77) that:

"Revaluation
The fair value of the group’s Land and buildings was revalued on 30 June 2019 by Hilco."

So there's no "hidden value", ie the assets are already on the balance sheet at an amount close to their fair value.

JakNife

[loglorry1] 16/5/2024 09:52

There seems to be some misinformation about HARL having strong tangible assets in the form of shipyards which exceed their level of debt/liabilities.

At the half year to 30 June 2023 (latest accounts). Property plant and equipment on the balance sheet was £26,670,074. As a reminder they own Riverstone c$115m.

It's not like there's any better news in current assets/liabilities. Total current assets are £24.8m vs current liabilities of £142.1m. The Riverstone loan is current but even stripping that out they have payables of £43.8m.

hxxps://www.harland-wolff.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Half-year-Report.pdf

[blackhorse23] 16/5/2024 02:23

https://www.ft.com/content/eb6aec9c-a8e1-43a0-b289-4e7413ea5ddc

[blackhorse23] 16/5/2024 02:23

Loss 70m & revenues 27m

[si derman] 15/5/2024 20:29

hxxps://www.gmb.org.uk/news/harland-and-wolff-closure-reports-tory-government-warfare

[loglorry1] 15/5/2024 15:19

Yes JN - It's possible that in fact they still haven't rejected it but it sounds like they have to me too. I covered a few on the 30% drop but reshorted them around 10p. I'm sure the bulls will hold until the bitter end but I suspect we'll get an RNS fairly soon that says the EDG has been rejected. I'd give that a 75% chance. If that happens I suspect HARL will very quickly thereafter run out of (other peoples) money.