Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[club sandwich] 02/1/2020 12:12

squire "Like to see China pick up 25m shares on the open market" at the moment there is no firm agreement in place for them to buy *any* from VRS thorugh a new placing. but you'd have thought that the entity that wanted to buy 29.9% - as Mike Brenner related Ricketts had told him on a golf course, you'll remember, in very clear breach of stock maket regulations about price-sensitive news - would be picking some up in the market. but apparently not - apparently NOBODY wants to buy these in volume.

wonder why?

[squire007] 02/1/2020 12:11

The HNW chap is a lucky basket ;-)

[supernumerary] 02/1/2020 12:07

club - drawing inaccurate analogies doesn't strengthen your argument. In the cases you mention the problems were hidden inside giant organisations. In this one they're all too apparent - have you looked at the accounts?

'allegedly' - lol. Tell that to the Chinese - how do all those guys on Alibaba survive without this 'certification'? Easy - they sell what their customers want.

Yes, I do understand IP, but I fear you don't. Explain what IP VRS has and how it would go about defending it in a Chinese court should that ever prove necessary. Even if VRS had something worth defending, which I'm not convinced of, it doesn't have the finances to pursue it. Whatever it's got, it's not defensible, which is what counts.

The stuff about remote control of machines is frankly laughable. Do you really think Xi Jinping and his minions would allow Ricketts to turn his machines on and off at will? Or that he could hide the protocols for running them when the Chinese were paying all the bills? It's preposterous and you know it.

[runthejoules] 02/1/2020 12:03

I got 5000 at 83.9p so that makes me feel better Clint. Gambling we're near the bottom now in a hugely illiquid stock. Glalth.

[twatcher] 02/1/2020 12:03

"IMO any movement between 70p to 120p is basically irrelevant to me as it’s driven by short term trading."

Seems a little dismissive to classify a 40% drop (120p->70p) or an 70% increase (70p->120p) as irrelevant.

[squire007] 02/1/2020 12:02

Like to see China pick up 25m shares on the open market :-0 ... CS you really think they can get them, give them a nudge then ... pmsl. :-)

[clint fleecewood] 02/1/2020 11:57

Some more for me. Not many available. Had to go negotiated trade to get £650 worth @81p.

[mikebrenner] 02/1/2020 11:56

For context Dave it's only 0.08% of the total VRS share capital so yes it is a small PI type sale ... talk to me when it's 1%. Again for context other stocks are growing and so don't be surprised to see smaller PIs trade out of overweight VRS positions chasing returns elsewhere - if that better fits their risk / reward then good luck to them. FOMO if it happens when major VRS commercial orders / a good China deal are announced will just mean it happens the other way. My key to small cap investing is to get in before the big money arrives

[pshevlin] 02/1/2020 11:55

Let's see if the last low point holds. (not important for some on here with money to burn of course)

[jointer13] 02/1/2020 11:53

i see some are playing down the importance of having graphene materials verified, quite unbelieveable really.

I would say its very important.

plenty of info out there.

there is a lot of fake graphene out there...poor quality material.

"seems that the high-profile scientific discoveries, technical breakthroughs and heavy investment in graphene have created a Wild West for business opportunists: the study shows that some producers are labelling black powders that mostly contain cheap graphite as graphene, and selling them for top dollar."

In a review of material specification sheets for 60 graphene products, The Graphene Council found that more than 45 different material characteristics were listed, but not one of them was common to all of the materials claiming to be graphene. In fact, less than 75% of the products reviewed shared a common listed specification.

"This makes it impossible for a buyer to compare materials from different suppliers without actually testing each sample, and a full graphene sample characterization by a world-class lab costs approximately $12-15,000 - per sample!"

"Successful commercialisation of graphene materials requires not only the ability to produce graphene to a declared specification, but to be able to do so at a commercial scale. It is nearly impossible for a graphene customer to verify the type of material they are receiving without going through an expensive and time-consuming process of having sample materials fully characterised by a laboratory that has the equipment and expertise to test graphene."

Versarien plc (AIM: VRS), the advanced materials engineering group, is pleased to announce that the Company is the first graphene company in the world to successfully complete the Graphene Council's "Verified Graphene Producer" programme (the "Programme").

The US-based Graphene Council's Programme is an independent, third party verification system that involves a physical inspection of the production facilities, a review of the entire production process, a random sampling of product material and rigorous characterisation and testing by a leading, international materials laboratory. The Programme is based on the most recent developments in globally recognised graphene standards, surveys of graphene producers, researchers and users, as well as analysis of commercially available graphene products.

The Graphene Council have designed the Programme to be an important step in providing customers and end-users with a degree of confidence, that has not existed before, that they are sourcing material from a reputable supplier, bringing transparency and clarity to a rapidly changing and opaque market for graphene materials.

"This is a huge validation of our technology and will enable our partners and potential customers to have confidence that the graphene we produce meets globally accepted standards."

this makes us quite unique.

orders ready to come...as per rns's.

don't listen to the bashers.

we are right at the forefront of the graphene revolution

[pshevlin] 02/1/2020 11:52

Let's see if the last low point holds. (not important for some on here with money to burn of course)

[jointer13] 02/1/2020 11:50

not the quality bit doesn't matter again....of course it matters.

[davemac3] 02/1/2020 11:47

122000 sell doesn't look like a small trader

[club sandwich] 02/1/2020 11:45

"Club - nobody's going to pay a vast premium for VRS - they've got shareholders too remember. Why would they be happy for their management team to give their money to VRS shareholders by paying an excessive price for a struggling little tiddler?"

Three words: ABN, Barclays, RBS.

"What's VRS got to attract them?"

World's only certified producer of high-grade graphene. allegedly.

"Or do you think they're going to approach the buyer, and say 'Give us the spec, we'll meet it at half the price'? Then they'll do whatever it takes to undercut VRS and their other rivals."

you know what IP is and how it works, right?

[billwave] 02/1/2020 11:35

The fact here that should not be overlooked is that VRS is the only verified producer of a commodity that as yet no-one has found a commercially viable use for. Hundreds of collaborations, some of which have been in place for years and absolutely no-one willing to hand over money for any of their products. That to me is just very difficult to get my head around. Yes new technology can be slow coming to market but come on, nothing? Meanwhile Graphene related products are appearing on shelves the world over with no VRS involvement. The only thing VRS is on the cusp of is share price capitulation, to where is anyones guess, no matter how much the chief ramping dude continues to blow smoke rings up PI asses.

[mikebrenner] 02/1/2020 11:32

Just for context we have 153m shares in issue and so current volumes traded each day are in the 0.1% to 0.5% range which shows the real illiquidity (today's current volume as of 11am is 0.36%). As a result it's easy to move the price up and down (mainly the latter) as there are no major buyers competing for shares just a gradual drift to long term PI holders and HNWs happy to pick up shares at lower prices ... the selling pressure is not shorters as there is no borrow, it's small PIs trading in and out of VRS influenced by lack of progress, share price movements Hitting stop losses, trading and misinformation from you know who. Don't get me wrong it's painful to see paper profits disappear, but then again it's minor compared to the risk / reward my investment thesis here is based on which is not the current business or its P&L but the future that I believe this management team can enable. Each to their own!It's hard if you spend your time share price watching each day to remain focused on the business & progress that actually matters and will make a material difference to the share price - spend more time researching this and build your conviction in the company, it's unique technology and its ability to execute and own your own investment timeframes for when things should happen. It's not overnight but IMO within 3-5 years we will see VRS being a much larger and more valuable global business with lots of acquisition interest that will further drive the company value.We should all know by now that those material things in the short term (next 6 months) are what management are focused on a) a good China deal b) major commercial orders signed with big brands which proves we can commercialise multiple graphene products in multiple sectors and developing a graphene enhanced supply chain that can be scaled. As Superg1 has stated we know that these commercial deals will be large (tonnes/millions£) but that they will also have a ramp up e.g AECOM arches will take 3 years to be installed, textiles will ramp through the seasons / brands / ranges so look at it like an annuity rather than a one off lottery win. Equally we should expect China to ramp up over time eg the latest results said the graphene park should be built within 3 years ... obvious opportunities to be producing before then. By understanding the groundwork that VRS are doing around vertically integrating to enable 2D enhanced supply chains you should have confidence in this ability to scale existing and to new partners.Whilst it can be painful to watch IMO any movement between 70p to 120p is basically irrelevant to me as it's driven by short term trading. The above changes will enable financial forecasts, drive placings from new investors to raise capital for the much needed expansion that needs to happen if VRS are to reach their potential ... this is when the larger funds and more buyers will enter the fray and we can expect to see a more liquid share and a higher % traded each day as a result. If this doesn't happen then obviously many of us will loose a lot of money hence the importance in owning your investment decisions! Until then keep researching, validate your investment thesis and have a happy new year.

[supernumerary] 02/1/2020 11:31

Nobody cares tuppence about that verification. If the product tests OK, and the supplier is proven, that will do. In any case for many applications eg textiles, the buyer is likely to accept a lower quality if the price is attractive enough. At the very least they'll use that as a lever to get the VRS price (and therefore margin) down. That's the nature of competition...

[tini5] 02/1/2020 11:15

"'Give us the spec, we'll meet it at half the price'? Then they'll do whatever it takes to undercut VRS and their other rivals."

Not easy when VRS are the only verified producer of graphene.

[supernumerary] 02/1/2020 11:12

Club - nobody's going to pay a vast premium for VRS - they've got shareholders too remember. Why would they be happy for their management team to give their money to VRS shareholders by paying an excessive price for a struggling little tiddler? What's VRS got to attract them? A couple of failing businesses, an album full of collaboration cards, and an industrial process no part of which do they actually seem to own or control. If I were a shareholder in a company buying that, I'd look to management to buy at a discount, not a premium.

And as I've already pointed out, it's very unlikely that large orders will come early. No major industrial company is going to place the first large order in a novel technology with an unproven supplier. If they feel they can't get the product elsewhere, they'll start small, and build up order size as the relationship is proven to work.

All that costs time and money. VRS won't be able to borrow on the back of such an order, because it won't be large enough, and will be hedged around with all sorts of conditions on delivery and quality and support etc. So if they need more money, which they will, because growth always needs funding, they'll have to come back to the market.

Then think about what happens as this, hopefully, stream of orders comes in. Do you think those dozens of Chinese Alibaba suppliers are going to stand idly by twiddling their thumbs? Or do you think they're going to approach the buyer, and say 'Give us the spec, we'll meet it at half the price'? Then they'll do whatever it takes to undercut VRS and their other rivals.

China has a long history of predatory pricing. Ask British Steel if they think the Chinese sell at true market prices. And the Americans have just produced a vast dossier on hidden Chinese state support to make Huawei a leading supplier of telecoms equipment. That's what happens when the Chinese think the industry is of strategic importance.

VRS is not in an easy industry with huge windfall profits to be made. And Neill Ricketts is not an Elon Musk who can rewrite the rules of the game. There's a long hard road ahead...

[flatcoat1] 02/1/2020 11:04

Happy new year to all lth.Had a laugh at this thread today. Apparently there is a private Twitter group for ramping. Lol. No point ramping of there is no-one to listen.On a positive note I would suggest listening to the podcast on 28th June again. The oil and gas requirement only works with graphene. And once risks complete would require orders in excess of 3T. So this could be a great start to the new year... IMHO

[oracle6] 02/1/2020 11:04

Let's not forget that the O&G discussions on commercialization are only starting. Remember the dotting of the Is and crossing the Ts on the China deal 18months ago. Private Investors already raising concerns on this, another failure to deliver.

[club sandwich] 02/1/2020 10:57

rainbow - to be fair yes you did. although this hasn't ended *just* yet.

bring on the takeover...

[rainbow23] 02/1/2020 10:40

You should all have listened to Rainbow and not thrown your money away buying this over hyped rubbish. I did warn you that it would all end in tears.

[club sandwich] 02/1/2020 10:29

"If it's China I don't care as it's not going anywhere at the moment and might encourage them to concentrate on do-able stuff."

how much company time, energy, money and resources have been wasted on China in the last two years? and yet - as we were very clearly told two days ago - they are nowhere even close to a deal.

Pull the plug on China, tell them to come back in a few yars, focus on growing the business elsewhere, then they'd be panting for a deal and eager to sign on any terms. Which clerly they aren't at the momnt, despite their alleged desperation for our product...