Invinity Energy Systems Share Discussion Threads

[vatnabrekk] 16/4/2024 10:53

Perhaps a manufacturer of lithium batteries for grid balancing who sees the writing on the wall for lithium and wanting to protect their business by moving into flow batteries.

Like Wartsila, for example?

[megaman2] 16/4/2024 10:31

Mab that's quite funny ...I think you need to better comprehend stuff when you Google things 😂😂😂😂

EDF have a market cap of £54 billion..

They are not some Indian with a few quid looking to relocate his family to Birmingham 😂😂😂..

I think you have slightly misinterpreted the tier 1 investment visa which is actually closed and the Rns which refers to a tier 1 company which are clearly completely separate things . Well clearly to most anyway ...😂🙈;

Try googling tier 1 company ...you have to use some common sense the strategic investor is not an immigrant ..😂 unless distribution channel From a corner shop might be beneficial...

[mab] 16/4/2024 09:48

Is this the Tier 1 investor that Invinity is refering to? Google doesnt throw up any other definition.

"The Tier 1 Investor visa category is for high net worth individuals who are willing and able to make a substantial financial investment in the UK. Investor visa holders are permitted to work, study and engage in business activities. They can also be accompanied or joined by their dependants."

[tom_w3] 16/4/2024 09:05

I also think EDF as the RNS references both a 'UK and international' component which the company's operations across 5 continents satisfies: https://www.edf.fr/en/the-edf-group/edf-at-a-glance/promoting-our-low-carbon-model-around-the-world I'm not sure whether the other UK energy suppliers have this reach

[owenski] 15/4/2024 14:31

No great detail presented in this RNS, 'progress being made, still weeks away' - 'IF' - it all goes well.

But, could be good, only time will tell.

Looks like they're outsourcing to a lot of their markets with an agreement to purchase the IP - cell stacks - directly from the company, this may or may not be a completed product in its own right as they stress in the previous Everdura announcement - that it'll utilise Invinity's supply chain, if so, then it sounds more like a 'handling charge' arrangement for some components with the donkey work of building the whole thing including cap ex costings for the rest of the VRB, being expended by the in country seller.

Direct sales still retained in UK and US/Canadian markets by IES, which at this stage, there is insufficient detail on actual margins earned from an as yet to be launched Mistral product.

Not enough detail on any of the financials on any of it, including what these investors are going to stump up in return for what exactly - equity stakes? - very likely, what kind of profitability will come to Invinity for making domestic supplied stuff or what royalty fees will look like for overseas builds is all unknown.

Being as Mistral is not yet launched, I'd suggest it'll take time for any vendor to tool up to make the stuff anyway.

The RNS sounds positive but is more of the same - 'progress being made', but still weeks away from the actual details.

'Cash flow' is likely to still be some time away, the business is likely to survive but the model is changing and not enough financial detail is known for the PI to make clear informed decisions beyond a guesswork punt.

IES are always upbeat in presentations but behind the scenes they continue to run out of money and the uptake of VRB's in the manner promised to investors has yet to gain traction, there still seems to be a sales hiatus.

Still no rush to buy into this.

[megaman2] 15/4/2024 13:53

Yes agreed but that h2 forecast included cash receipts from lodes and USA contract which have been delayed ...so a worse position is probable...all this patience talk from some is foolish imo.

Although I don't believe siemens own any rights to.mistral or that they will be the tier 1 UK partner . They have problems of their own and have kyboshed non core spending ..whilst it might be a good idea for them it wouldn't be a politically good move so I would be very surprised if it was them. It's more a UK energy supplier maybe the lodes partner .

More likely one of the big 6 .British gas n power eon EDF Scottish power sse ..
.EDF already linked to.invinity. EDF would be my guess but just a calculated hunch . Also they have a "pivot" towards renewables and battery storage .

[marktime1231] 15/4/2024 13:04

Pleased about what, that it might take several more weeks before we hear what sort of deal is going to rescue Invinity from an imminent financial crisis?

What is this deal going to cost us existing shareholders is all we want to know.

I doubt an external investor is going to take a material stake in Invinity eg more than a 30% subscription. If you are really a Tier 1 company and Invinity is a strategic winner just buy it, a £50M or £100M drop in the ocean. More likely to be regional manufacturing and distribution agreements of the Everdura type, keeping Invinity "capital light" means we don't have to invest our own money to scale up and roll out Mistral. Instead we make our money with design rights, license and royalty income, technical support. Sharing it presumably with Siemens Gamesa who must retain some sort of proprietary interest.

We are still on the run-in to audited FY23 results and whether pwc think IES are a going concern for what remains of the year ahead. Without some sort of cash injection who or what is paying the bills? Remember the warning in December "the Company currently anticipates having sufficient cash resources into H2 2024", so what happens from June onwards without some dosh?

No personally attributed statement to Zilch, just an anonymous "The Directors believe ..." style, I wonder if there is anything to read in to that.

Very very disappointing and frustrating.

[indiestu] 15/4/2024 11:30

The agreement with Siemens Gamesa was staged payments towards a development programme. Siemens Gamesa have an option to purchase 10% of IES at £1.75 per share and instal a Director on the board. A clever move on their part as they can exercise this option when every other investor has been fully diluted. Of course we get diluted again if Siemens chooses to exercise.

[megaman2] 15/4/2024 11:09

They should have had these strategic investments wrapped up before they ran out of cash.evdura placed at 32 p that should be the minimum zulch should be touting this out at any lower and imo he should be sacked .

Having said that we seem to be doing better than others like cellcube where there is no sign of life at all....

[mikemine1] 15/4/2024 10:54

Indiestu, not sure about taking equity in IES. I can't remember the details but I don't think Siemens did.

What exactly was patronising about the RNS? To me it was a reaction to the obvious disappointment PIs were feeling about missing the self imposed deadline.

[mikemine1] 15/4/2024 10:49

Looking beyond today's RNS, if the negotiations are successful in the way IES indicate, what does that mean for IES and the SP? IMHO it means the Market would view IES as being safe from collapse at the very least and that would be very positive for the share price The danger of financial collapse is an ever present risk with these small loss making companies so to have the support of more established partners would lead to a re-rating of the share price Certainly some upfront money from said partners wouldn't hurt either.

IES has a certain amount of manufacturing capacity already. Would they sell that on to one of the partners to get things moving quicker or would they retain it to develop their market themselves? Either way I can see money and security coming to IES without further dilution. It's all to play for.

[indiestu] 15/4/2024 10:39

IES are seeking investment from strategic partners. To invest there must be a transfer of ownership of shares. Therefore dilution. If these partners were purchasing the right to manufacture under license in their country with an upfront fee they would be licensed manufacturer sellers. These partners are taking all the risk for IES. They won't do it without asking for a stake in the corporate entity. The RNS is patronising in the extreme. This is why the share price sits at its current level. Having said all that I would rather have a small part of big organisation that is profitable and growing so it could be a fun journey over the next five years.

[ivyhedge] 15/4/2024 10:31

it takes 2-3 years to build a factory organise the input locally of materials and reach the build, install and commision of systems. This does not come prepacked from Amazon.
If you had time, todays CERES presentation was a good showcase of what Invinity is trying to do and a way forward.

[vatnabrekk] 15/4/2024 10:08

I'm just pleased to get an RNS of any kind. It shows that the patient still has a pulse!

[gbcol] 15/4/2024 10:05

Current forecasts are for substantial profits from next year. It doesn’t want to be going back from that and with mistral coming on stream this year it definitely shouldn’t be.

[mikemine1] 15/4/2024 10:02

I think you've hit on the important section Ivyhedge. To have the capacity to produce what will be needed if Mistral etc takes off would mean a huge investment which means a big dilution. Until we see the end of the negotiations we won't know who these guys are but I'm hoping they all are manufacturers of some description. In fact strategic partners has been used more than once in references to this initiative. Realising your limitations is no bad thing and IES have realised that the royalty route is probably the best way to achieve profit and "value for shareholders". It means it won't be, in itself, a huge company but it will be part of a huge entity with huge turnover if things go well. "Capital light" reenforces my opinion that dilution may be over but potential maybe reduced.

I've been wondering about what has happened to Siemens' input, very quiet there. Could they be the class 1 investor? If not, where are they in all this?

[ivyhedge] 15/4/2024 09:33

'Company to remain capital light and generate significant cash flows as it grows globally whilst retaining tight ownership of its core intellectual property and securing a leading position within its home markets'.

They are trying to NOT dilute the share holders value, but getting other companies to produce the units elsewhere. This makes sense if the orders that are to come are large enough that Invinity could not produce them quick enough in thier existing factories.
If Invinity just needed money they could rely on people like me to invest. What they need is manufacturing companies to set up in USA, Australia, Europe, South America, Japan etc. My guess is the first three at least and the first two would be ideal.
In real terms if this company is to go forward at least three new manufacturing
companies will be needed. To reach profitability in 2-3 years means loss leading on the first couple of years while they produce capacity. Meanwhile Invinity sells the idea and a big boost will come when the UK government commits itself. No-one will believe in Invinity if its own Government is dragging its heels.

[indiestu] 15/4/2024 09:13

I take a punt at our current equity being halved.

[megaman2] 15/4/2024 09:06

They missed the timefrain the excuse was just guff ..it was clear B.s. as any details from a tier 1 would be confidential and there is no reason why they could not conclude that on time . Now it's coming weeks ..

I'm getting sick to the back teeth of folk saying paticience and they should take their time .

The notion that they should take their time is nonsense..it's crucifying the share price now sitting at 10% of it's high ..

Zulch has overseen a catastrophic fall in the share price from a peak of 239..should have been axed by the board with the CFO.

Everytime ies run out of money and dilute at lower levels and existing shareholders get bent over and then people start calling for patience and time taking ..what's need is a new CEO or a rocket up the existing ones backside ...most CEO would have been sacked by now and all zilch does is congratulate himself every time they raise funds to complete the lights on and pay his fat salary .

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[guppygould] 15/4/2024 08:47

Anybody fancy taking a punt on what the dilution could be with multiple strategic partners?

[robertspc1] 15/4/2024 08:30

I view this as very positive albeit more delays. Multiple parties inevitably means more complexity but hopefully some competitive tension too

[itsriskythat] 15/4/2024 08:26

The board is not in a strong negotiating position. No update on the cash situation. No update on Mistral (even a hint). No surprise that investors are dragging their feet to extract concessions.

[sleveen] 15/4/2024 08:10

Pump the share price before the "subscription".