Ideagen Share Discussion Threads

[seela] 05/1/2003 23:56

Whereas email WOULD be ok for copyright or proof of authorship?

(Well, legally ok, at least - you may still not want to risk it flying through insecure cyberspace??)

[gausie] 05/1/2003 21:18

Count Dino

I agree - my patent lawyer refuses to receive documents describing inventions by email since, in his opinion, this may constitute disclosure.

[count dino] 05/1/2003 19:20

Seela re emailing yourself your idea.

I believe that by emailing the idea to yourself, unles using purely an internal protected mail server, means it is now in the public domain (the internet) and without encryption could be used against you to prove that the idea was not secret or protected.

Although I would expect that as a journo you are probably more au fait with copywright and the internet etc.

[gausie] 05/1/2003 19:10

seela

was trying to answer your question about what use is a patent when a big firm takes you on in the courts.

If you have a patent, then you have at least have a defended and fortified position from which to fight. How (or if indeed whether) you then conduct your fight is an entirely different issue.

Gausie

[seela] 05/1/2003 18:18

Gausie

I am still meditating on the Sun Tzu thing!!






Great thread everybody - I will check out all your suggestions in the next couple of days.



As for whether corporations will be as enthusiastic as I am about my ideas - I have in the past had a project stolen by one of Britain's most famous entrepreneurs (has a beard), and I set very high standards for my ideas - I regularly dismiss out of hand ideas that some people would build a business on.

Then again - there is a danger of being TOO sophisticated and picky - for example - if I had been the one to think of Death Brand Cigarettes, I would probably have told myself to grow up!! But it made millions for somebody.

Reminds me of the old saying about nobody ever going skint by underestimating the taste of the public!

[gausie] 05/1/2003 18:04

I'm surprised that JackRussel hasn't popped in - now he really is a serial inventor. I believe he has literally dozens of patents - including one for a piece of technology that probably 90% or more of posters on here use.

It was he who helped me out by pointing me to the best people for my first patent.

[jonc] 05/1/2003 17:35

seela,

These are the people who arranged the seminar.

JC

[mg] 05/1/2003 17:32

seela
Take a look at this lot - and what services they offer



or this



then there are these



or these



These are part of the club



There are lots of people out there that you can talk to without giving much away. Personally, I am not entirely sure about your thinking w.r.t. talking to a large corporation - they are unlikely to be as enthusiastic as you are about YOUR ideas. There are countless examples of large corps who have let brilliant people with brilliant ideas slip through their hands because they showed no enthusiam - and the inventor - probably someone who thought up the idea whilst working for them - goes off and makes his or her personal fortune by doing their own thing.

Talk to someone who really knows/has experience of doing it a hundred times.

I doubt if there are many of us on here who have ALL the necessary experience - although there do seem to be some serial inventors out there.

Gausie - I'm impressed - thought you only had eyes for overblown valve makers ;)

[i know nothing] 05/1/2003 17:21

I used the recorded delivery option and had it sent to my solicitor. He advised me to send it to him as opposed to myself. I also gave him three "exact" copies of what was in the envelope. The copies were sealed by myself.

I was advised to place all notes (whether hand written or otherwise) into the envelopes along with photos etc which I did.

I recall being told quite specifically that it must be recorded delivery as opposed to ordinary postage.

IKN

[optimist] 05/1/2003 16:01

Seela Re your post 31

Do not rely on email to prove date or origin of authorship it would be too dificult to prove that it had not been tampered with. The theory behind the recorded delivery method it that if it comes to court you can present the judge with an unopened envelope and proof of when it was posted.

[seela] 05/1/2003 15:26

Alchemy

I am primarily a journalist/author, and also a stockmarket speculator.

I do not have time to go starting companies and selling shares to my friends.

I want to approach a corporation that can take advantage of my leading edge ideas, and if they decide against implementing some of them, then fine.

So long as I get my agreed share IF an idea is accepted, and takes off.

[seela] 05/1/2003 14:20

One idea on proving authorship is to send an email to yourself. Quicker and more certain than posting it?

Although you cannot be so certain that no-one else has seen an email, as you can with a sealed letter?

Anyway, regarding patents, I have one idea that may qualify, but I have several other ideas that are branding concepts (I have a background in marketing).

If I proved authorship of a branding concept and then approached a major corporation, then would I have any copyright etc. protection?

[optimist] 05/1/2003 13:12

Seela

If you have designed something you automatically have design right on that design. This is not as strong as a patent but does give you some protection.

The problem is proving when and if you created the design. If it can be put onto paper then send it to yourself (or better still your solicitor) by recorded delivery with "Do not open" written on the package. That will enable you to prove a priority date at some time in the future.

If you apply for a patent then the idea must not already be in the public domain which means that anyone who has seen it should be subject to an implied or actual NDA.

It may be possible to apply for the patent yourself which can be done for around £100. You would then have several months before you have to start spending serious money processing the application. If you go down this route then at least you can claim "Patent applied for" on your marketing literature but be careful get it wrong and you may not get such a strong (or any) patent as you otherwise could.

DYOR - No advice intended.

[alkrington] 05/1/2003 13:08

The tune in question was a series of pulses sent from the cartridge to the main unit. If the main unit didn't hear the right tune it didn't even look to see if any code was there to run.

Mike.

[seela] 05/1/2003 13:03

Alk

Couldn't competitors have copied the game, but with another tune?

[seela] 05/1/2003 12:06

I am a big fan of Sun Tzu, but I cannot quite see how this particular saying applies to my particular question.

What am I missing?

Or are you going to make me meditate on it for a few moons?? ;0)

[i know nothing] 05/1/2003 02:44

Seela,

I've faced the same problems as you, had the same dilemmas and had decided on a similar route.

In my particular case the piece of equipment was electronic management system coupled to various mechanical devices. I realised that there was no way that I could have afforded several patents, especially as at the time I could see it being necessary to apply for patents in at least a dozen countries.

I confided in a friend who suggested copyright, at first I laughed, but then he went on to explain. Several other inventions have been protected by copyright that you would expect to have been protected by patent. An example would be the video recorder. The waveform that the video generates (the signal if you like) was copyrighted. Not the actual machine itself, just what is in essence the key to it all.

In my particular case I could apply this method of protection to my invention, whether you can to yours or not I have no idea.

IKN

[gausie] 04/1/2003 23:29

seela

As Sun Tzu probably would have said, given half a chance:

The accomplished general defeats his enemies by the skilled deployment of his armies and weapons. His first duty must be to train his armies and stock his armoury.

;-)

[seela] 04/1/2003 23:21

Gausie

But are your patents desirable enough for a multinational to try to challenge/bypass?

If they were, would your international conventions have enough teeth to save you from getting bled dry in the courts?

[seela] 04/1/2003 23:17

michaeld

Thanks for the contrarian view.

However, if an idea needs metalworking, engineering etc., and you are not trained in that area, then how can one do it in "secret"?

I am not skilled enough in metalwork to even make a tin opener!!

Also, there is little "head start" you can get on the big boys in terms of production - once your product hits the marketplace they can take it to pieces and copy it in a few weeks.

Only a patent offers protection from the big boys.


OR BEING WITH A BIG BOY FIRM YOURSELF, SO THEY CAN GAIN THE MARKETING EDGE FOR THE NEW PRODUCT (as well as possibly defending the patents etc.).

So, if the idea is non-patentable, but needs special skills to produce and develop, then without a big partner it could be very difficult to capitalise on your unique product or idea before the copyists get in.

If it IS patentable then (unless you are an engineer)you will probably have to disclose to someone in order to develop it (so why not to a big firm)??

Maybe a big firm will be more respectful if you approach them with a well known lawyer behind you; than some engineer you may hire, who sees the chance for a quick buck, or shoots his mouth off down the pub?





Regarding your idea of a "government agency set up to protect individual patentees and fight the legal battles, if necessary" -


This (if targeted on inventions that were actually (or close to) generating revenue/jobs for britain) would be a sensible and nationally beneficial use of taxpayers money, and as such is clearly out of the question!!!

[gausie] 04/1/2003 23:04

Wordwide patents are not nearly as expensive as most people believe. There is an international convention called the PCT that will protect the IP in most of the world - effectively it registers the claim to the patent without the need to translate and file in each country.

My patents have each cost between £8k and £20k to file in the UK and worldwide under PCT. That's not a lot of money if you have confidence in your innovation.

Gausie

[michaeld] 04/1/2003 22:30

Seela; I don't wish to detract from the good posts above but I think that, if possible, it is better to get set up to produce your good idea, in secret and get a head start on the big boys. Obviously if the idea is about a new kind of aeroplane, for example, it is going to need big bucks and investor's but a tin opener wouldn't cost much?
I had a friend once who was a trainee 'Patent Agent' with a large British Plc.
Part of the work involved looking at other people's patents and finding ways around them, if they were of interest to the company. Apparently, if the idea was good enough they were prepared to fight over it in court on the basis that most ordinary people would not be able to afford the large legal fees involved.
Rotten trick eh? Hoover probably fought Dyson recently on that basis over their cyclone type vacuum cleaner?
Worldwide patents cost a huge amount because they have to be taken out in individual country's and if you then have them poached it must be devastating?
Personally I reckon that there ought to be a government agency set up to protect individual patentees and fight the legal battles, if necessary. If large companies knew that they were facing a legal battle against a government agency in stealing an individual's patent they probably wouldn't even try it?