De La Rue Share Discussion Threads

[gargoyle2] 29/12/2023 08:38

I'm loving the Christmas spirit on this board.

[kooba] 29/12/2023 08:33

Insufferable narcissistic bore.You do not understand what was going on and still don't , good for you being a lucky fool. I'm sure your stupidity will catch up with you soon enough. Good riddance.

[wigwammer] 29/12/2023 07:42

Oh gosh. Shouty man kooba is back. Yes I recall these exchanges at 40p. I remember the kooba "cut and paste special", filling the board with negativity on a daily basis... Yet here we are, 8 months on, and the shares have more than doubled.. :)

[wigwammer] 29/12/2023 07:21

I really should thank you kooba. If it wasn't for inexperienced pant wetters such as yourself then the shares never would have reached 40p, and I wouldn't have been able to fill my boots at that level. All recorded here for posterity... ATB :)

[kooba] 29/12/2023 07:20

Top marks for not responding to points over complete non delivery of turn around plan and having 4 successive profit warnings missing all their guidance to the market. Bigger question over renegotiation of debt facility and allowing existing convenents which would be an issue to their auditors within months of agreeing. You think that was clever??

[wigwammer] 29/12/2023 07:14

You make some good points, boll. Yes - successive management teams have been hamstrung by material legacy issues from debt, to pensions, to sfo investigation, to downturn... but hopefully this time the cycle will return to give the business some breathing space... I also do not believe that crystal amber have been a positive activist influence, and if I were a holder of their investment fund I would ask why they have repeatedly exposed funds to a business with such intractable issues, often at not very attractive prices. For people who want more than an entirely facile understanding of this organisation, I recommend reading the July 2019 company response to the crystal amber intervention at the time. Adds a lot of colour. The Crystal Amber model and NAV was knocked sideways by Covid and it has never quite recovered. I suspect in both absolute return and risk adjusted terms, most punters would have had a far more pleasant journey simply owning a FTSE250 tracker... ATB

[boll] 29/12/2023 00:40

The interests of Crystal Amber do not necessarily line up with those of other DLAR share holders. It would suit Crystal Amber to dispose of their shares in DLAR to a bidder potentially at a lower valuation of DLAR. Their large holding is basically a strength to them allowing them to influence decision making and a weakness as lack of liquidity within the market prevent them from quickly realising value. I think also that Crystal Amber has largely been a failure as an activist shareholder as it is effectively being wound up. I am a shareholder in DLAR and am broadly supportive of the current management. The level of legacy issues pre 2020 eg Portals, loss of passport contract and pension deficits within a largely cyclical business has severely impacted the existing management team. At least now there are signs of improvements within the markets the business operates in

[agnes] 29/12/2023 00:04

I'd be more interested in where you're reinvesting your profit on De La Rue than what a failed management team said more than four years ago. Move on mate.

[wigwammer] 28/12/2023 22:36

I recommend people read the July 2019 company response to the crystal amber intervention at the time. Adds a lot of colour about that organisation. Too many mugs :)

[wigwammer] 28/12/2023 22:34

Hmm... 3 ticks down. But note none of them answer the question... too many mugs here :)

[agnes] 28/12/2023 21:27

Like you, I don't own any De La Rue. Sounds as though you won't be happy if Crystal Amber did well on this one. Having one third of its Fund in it, says a lot though. Given you sold out and seem to be the expert, no doubt you'll be proven right and Crystal Amber wrong.

[wigwammer] 28/12/2023 20:14

Agnes, the shares were above 200p for about 3 days in March 2021. I remember that period because I rode DLAR all the way up from 48p to 170p. All reported here btw.... But there are no reported sales by CA after that period. Want to tell me how they sold above 200p?

[kooba] 28/12/2023 19:36

The other point ignored is that it was not just Crystal Amber that wanted change and some real action in resolving issues..loose more lost the support of other leading institutional investors , this was quite clearotherwise he would not have walked...he knew he could not command support so fell on his sword.A little bit of joined up thinking would go a long way...

[kooba] 28/12/2023 19:09

Think the guy has an issue and deliberately ignores plain facts.Has he worked out why the shares have gone up ?Crystal Amber and Richard Griffiths buying the shares...something they weren't doing before the change of chair and the rapid attention to sorting out the finances. Simple.Glad he's out so shouldn't have to view his nonsense posts anymore.Lot more to go for now some of the short term punters are out I guess.

[agnes] 28/12/2023 18:30

Wigmammer, never let the facts get in the way of a narrative! You're right that Crystal Amber doubled its holding but in July 2020 at 110p- it invested £18 million as part of the £100 million rescue placing. It increased its stake to 18%. When the share price went above 200p in 2021, it sold back down to under 10%- so it took a good profit. It then bought another 8% of DLAR this summer at 41p a share.

As for July 2019, the previous CEO Martin Sutherland managed to lose £18 million in a bad debt to the Venezuelan central bank when sanctions came in- that didn't stop Sutherland receiving a £180k bonus though- as it was linked to sales and pre-exceptional profits!

You clearly have some gripe with Crystal Amber- then I guess you should hope for a De La Rue share price collapse- as it will hurt Crystal Amber- 20p down on De La Rue will take 8% of its NAV- ouch!

[wigwammer] 28/12/2023 16:15

Thanks Agnes. Crystal Amber also reported doubling their DLAR holding in December 2019 at well above £1 per share. This was right after Mr Loosemore and Mr Vacher had been appointed, no doubt in part instigated by the fact that the geniuses Crystal Amber had been putting their activist stick about for much of the previous 12 months.... At the time of their £1+ purchases, the company had £170m+ net debt, a £37m pension liability, reported a 15% fall in interim sales, and was undergoing an SFO investigation. In other words, Crystal Amber were buying an overpriced dog, and I pity any poor management team tasked with sorting all that sh1te out... If anybody is interested in learning more about the nature of Crystal Amber, I recommend reading the July 2019 company response to the Crystal Amber intervention. Embarrassing... ATB

[agnes] 28/12/2023 11:14

No one ever went broke taking a profit- well done wigwammer.
Crystal Amber owns 17% of DLAR, having doubled up at 41p over the summer after removing Loosemore. I haven't seen it be critical of Whiley. It's 5 April RNS was an objective assessment of Vacher, Loosemore and shareholder value destruction:


Don't think you can blame a long-term shareholder for calling that out.
And if you read what Whiley wrote on the 19th and the scale of costs paid to so called advisers with our money- it was a disgrace.

Interesting that Crystal Amber has around 33% of its net assets in this one position- that's certainly putting its money where it's mouth is.

[agnes] 28/12/2023 11:14

No one ever went broke taking a profit- well done wigwammer.
Crystal Amber owns 17% of DLAR, having doubled up at 41p over the summer after removing Loosemore. I haven't seen it be critical of Whiley. It's 5 April RNS was an objective assessment of Vacher, Loosemore and shareholder value destruction:


Don't think you can blame a long-term shareholder for calling that out.
And if you read what Whiley wrote on the 19th and the scale of costs paid to so called advisers with our money- it was a disgrace.

Interesting that Crystal Amber has around 33% of its net assets in this one position- that's certainly putting its money where it's mouth is.

[wigwammer] 28/12/2023 09:53

I've sold out over the past couple of weeks - it has been a beautiful ride from 40p. A takeover is possible but less likely now the shares have recovered IMO - not sure why any sensible outfit is going to be more interested at 85p than at 40p. Nor would I take Crystal Ambers guidance except with an extremely large pinch of salt. They originally overpaid for a highly indebted business with a pension issue and declining sales base, and since have been little more than a pain in the backside to any poor b@gger tasked with turning it around... ATB to those who continue to hold and best wishes for 2024.

[mickyl] 27/12/2023 21:26

So let’s assume for a moment that DLAR has stabilised, polymer banknotes and authentication expertise and brand will attract a significant premium in any sale. This share could easily get to 100p all by itself if the momentum continues.
DLAR are still in a trough as Revenue has declined and the P/S ratio is a bit behind the industry. If authentication comes through and currency order books continue to increase then this share could easily get to 125p in 6 months time with good EPS turnaround IMO.
If that is the case what would it’s intrinsic value be then? Crystal Amber said intrinsic value was 102p a couple of months ago but we are nearly already there.
I sincerely hope the Clive’s are the real deal but 25% commitment from Whiley needs to increase for me.

[wigwammer] 20/12/2023 17:44

All it proves is that DLAR was never in quite the hole that some claimed it was. No magician has come in and waved a wand. The cycle is turning and the strategic value of the business is now being more appropriately valued... ATB