Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[che7win] 29/1/2022 21:29

Sorry to hear the news.He was very patience and helpful to others, I had no idea his ARM career sucess

[zangdook] 29/1/2022 19:46

Reading the arm.com page linked above, I have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, but the kind, exquisitely thorough and helpful Gengulphus we knew on here is clearly recognisable in the description of David Seal.

[brwo349] 29/1/2022 17:25

Terrible news. Just reading back at some of this fellow's posts on this thread he was in a league of his own and will be sadly missed.

[pvb] 22/1/2022 17:47

ammons 21 Jan '22 - 18:20 - 1212 of 1214

It seems, according to Lemonfool, that the great Gengulphus has passed away. This post above seems to have been his last one on ADVFN though I am aware that the search facility here is not 100% accurate.

AFAICS, this looks to be G's last post on ADVFN, on 27 Nov 2021



He died quite suddenly and unexpectedly in December.

[zangdook] 22/1/2022 00:19

Oh no! Gengulphus was unfailingly polite, helpful, intelligent, extremely well-informed, frankly I don't know where to turn with tax questions if this news is true. I would say he was the only poster on advfn for whom I had 100% respect. Without fail, he wrote long, thoughtful, extraordinarily detailed posts in response to any query from any random person. He certainly helped me several times when HMRC were being obtuse and vexatious.

At least we have an archive of his wisdom.

RIP Great G

[srtu] 21/1/2022 19:32

Terrible news and very sad to hear such news. I wish and pray that this news might not be true. If the news is correct, RIP Gengulphus and Deepest condolences to his family.
Gengulphus is so detailed and offered a great help in explaining each and every point regarding latest tax return and I must greatly appreciate his inputs. I have seen his other posts helping the wider community, and you will be missed.

[ammons] 21/1/2022 18:20

It seems, according to Lemonfool, that the great Gengulphus has passed away. This post above seems to have been his last one on ADVFN though I am aware that the search facility here is not 100% accurate.



He helped me greatly with my tax returns over the years on Motley Fool, Lemonfool and on here.

RIP Gengulphus. You will be missed.

[panshanger1] 17/12/2021 16:17

Personal Assets has been very steady too Always pleased to have a sizeable holding in both of these

[lozzer69] 17/12/2021 15:26

CGT doing a good job at wealth preservation . I intend to add soon.

[gengulphus] 16/10/2021 11:27

Srtu,

... the following info came from CGT calculator. I suspect something is going wrong in CGT calculator.

I'm practically certain that something is going wrong in CGTcalculator, because of two obviously wrong bits of information in the extra output you've provided. The first that struck me was:

Total number of trades = 7
Total number of buys = 4
Total number of sells = 3

There are 7 trades in your input, but they comprise 4 buys, 2 sells and a rights issue. So it looks as if CGTcalculator is counting the rights issue as a sell, not a buy. It's actually neither a sell nor a buy - but it's a lot closer to being a buy than a sell! It differs from a buy only in that unlike a buy, it cannot be matched to a sell under the same-day or 30-day rules (something that only rarely makes a difference, and doesn't for your example), but from a sell in that it absorbs cash and adds shares rather than the other way around (something which will always make a difference).

This led me to check the rest of the information more carefully, and in the "INFORMATION FOR TAX RETURN" section, I saw "Disposals = 2". Those are clearly the two sells, so CGTcalculator seems to be treating the rights issue as a sell that is not a disposal...

But the first sell has disposal proceeds of 2842*£3.90729 = £11,104.52 and the second 60333*£1.06330 = £64,152.08 (note that their commissions of £6.95 each don't enter into their "Disposal Proceeds" calculations, but instead into the "Allowable Costs" calculations). Rounding those down to whole numbers of pounds, that produces total disposal proceeds for the two sells of £11,104+£64,152 = £75,256, which is £14,851 short of the £90,107 disposal proceeds reported by CGTcalculator. And £14,851 is exactly the result of the disposal proceeds calculation to the rights issue data (46410*£0.32000 = £14,851.20) and rounding down to a whole number of pounds.

So it appears that CGTcalculator is treating the rights issue as a sell that is not a disposal but does have disposal proceeds, when it clearly doesn't have any such proceeds... I'm afraid I cannot help beyond identifying that inconsistency - that requires me to be able to see the full details of CGTcalculator's internal calculations, which I am not. Sorry incidentally that my last post suggested that you might be able to provide them. I was working from a memory that those were available from CGTcalculator that turns out to have been false - I think it's actually something provided by the Stonebanks calculator rather than by CGTcalculator (but I'm afraid I don't think the Stonebanks calculator would solve your problem, because I cannot see that it has any facility to input rights issues).

So that's basically as far as I can go - CGTcalculator's author is presumably the only person who can provide more details of how CGTcalculator is doing the calculations and/or correct any problems with them.

If you want a work-around for the problem, though, I'd suggest you search your CGTcalculator input data for rights issues, and then check each rights issue for sales of the same type of share on the same day or in the preceding 30 days. If there isn't any such sale, change the "Rights" line to a "Buy" line (and append a note to the CGTcalculator output saying something like "The 09/11/2020 buy is actually shares obtained from a rights issue, but treating it as a buy does not alter how it is matched to share sales"). If there is such a sale, extract all the data for that company and do the calculation by hand - but given that rights issues are quite rare and it still requires some bad luck to have sold the same type of share on the same day or in the preceding 30 days, that case shouldn't happen at all often (hopefully not at all).

Gengulphus

[srtu] 14/10/2021 13:05

Gengulphus,

Thanks. Even I am quite convinced with your calculations, but the following info came from CGT calculator. I suspect something is going wrong in CGT calculator.


TRADE MATCHING INFORMATION

TAX_YEAR 20-21

1. SELL: 2842 ABC.L on 08/06/2020 at £3.90729 gives GAIN of £2,621.52
Matches with:
BUY: 25/06/2020 2842 ABC.L shares of 5029 bought at £2.96621
CALCULATION: Gain = £2,621.52 = ( 2842 * 3.90729 - 6.95 )
- ( 5029 * 2.96621 + 6.95 + 74.59 ) * ( 2842 / 5029 )

2. SELL: 60333 ABC.L on 23/11/2020 at £1.0633 gives GAIN of £10,120.18
Matches with:
BUY: SECTION 104 HOLDING. 60333 ABC.L shares of 60333 bought at average price of £0.89545
CALCULATION: Gain = £10,120.18 = ( 60333 * 1.0633 - 6.95 )
- ( 60333 * 0.89545 )



CURRENT PORTFOLIO

Your portfolio is currently empty

STATISTICS

Total amount paid in stamp duty = £235.85
Total amount paid in broker's fees = £40.70

Total number of trades = 7
Total number of buys = 4
Total number of sells = 3

INFO FOR TAX RETURN

20-21: Disposal Proceeds = £90,107.00 , Allowable Costs = £77,366.00 , Disposals = 2
20-21: Year Gains = £12,741.00 Year Losses = £0.00

[gengulphus] 14/10/2021 11:34

Srtu,

Sorry, I cannot tell what's going on without seeing all of CGTcalculator's calculations. That's because the calculation you quote, of the gain on the second disposal, only tells me that it thinks the section 104 holding emerging from the previous calculations is "60333 ABC.L shares ... bought at average price of £0.89545". It doesn't tell me why it thinks that - for that, I need to know its calculation of what the rights issue does, which will be based on the section 104 holding going into that calculation, which will be the result of its calculation for the preceding buy, which will be based on the section 104 holding going into that, and so on back to the start of the calculation.

There is however a sanity check you can do. Over the entire history of a holding, starting with no shares and ending with no shares, and assuming the only inputs and outputs are cash amounts, the total of the gains calculated minus the total of the losses calculated should be equal to the total of the cash outputs minus the total of the cash inputs, since they're just two different ways of calculating how much you've gained or lost overall. For my calculation:

Total calculated gains = £2,621.53+£10,336.75 = £12,958.28minus Total calculated losses = £0.00-------------------------------------------------------------------- £12,958.28Total cash outputs = £11,097.57+£64,145.13 = £75,242.70minus Total cash inputs= £10,429.57+£14,998.60+£14,006.91+£7,998.14+£14,851.20 = £62,284.42-------------------------------------------------------------------- £12,958.28


But whether or not that sanity check helps you sort the problem out, do post the full CGTcalculator calculations, as they might indicate a bug in CGTcalculator and if they do, that bug needs fixing to avoid people being misled into putting incorrect calculations into their tax returns.

Gengulphus

[srtu] 14/10/2021 07:23

Gengulphus,

Thanks for your help. I am completely with you for the first part of calculations for disposal made on 08/06/2020.

The second disposal made on 23/11/2020, CGT calculator gave the following:

SELL: 60333 ABC.L on 23/11/2020 at £1.0633 gives GAIN of £10,120.18
Matches with:
BUY: SECTION 104 HOLDING. 60333 ABC.L shares of 60333 bought at average price of £0.89545
CALCULATION: Gain = £10,120.18 = ( 60333 * 1.0633 - 6.95 )
- ( 60333 * 0.89545 )

This is different to your calculations, hence looking for more clarity. Thanks again for your help.

[gengulphus] 13/10/2021 20:45

Srtu,

Need some help in calculating CGT for the following Portfolio, particularly interested in disposal made after Rights issue. Many Thanks in advance for your help.

Buy/Sell Date Company Shares SharePrice Charges StampDuty Consideration Net Value
Buy 27/03/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.64911 6.95 51.85 10370.77 10429.57
Sell 08/06/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.90729 6.95 0.00 11104.52 11097.57
Buy 25/06/2020 ABC.L 5029 2.96621 6.95 74.59 14917.06 14998.60
Buy 01/07/2020 ABC.L 5012 2.77939 6.95 69.65 13930.31 14006.91
Buy 14/09/2020 ABC.L 3882 2.04854 5.95 39.76 7952.43 7998.14
Rights 09/11/2020 ABC.L 46410 0.32000 0.00 0.00 14851.20 14851.20
Sell 23/11/2020 ABC.L 60333 1.06330 6.95 0.00 64152.08 64145.13

There are no same-day trades, so work through the trades in date order:

Buy 27/03/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.64911 6.95 51.85 10370.77 10429.57

This leaves your 'section 104 pool' containing 2842 shares bought for a total of £10,429.57.

Sell 08/06/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.90729 6.95 0.00 11104.52 11097.57

Match the sale to acquisitions, by first looking for acquisitions within the 30 days following the sale. There are two such acquisitions, namely the 25/06/2020 and 01/07/2020 purchases; the rule is to match to the earliest such acquisition, so match the sale to the 25/06/2020 purchase under the 30-day rule. That purchase is of 5029 shares for a total of £14,998.60, which is more shares than the sale sells, so apportion the purchase into a purchase of 2842 shares to match the sale's size and a purchase of the remaining 5029-2842 = 2187 shares:

* Matching purchase is of 2842 shares bought for £14,998.60 * 2842/5029 = £8,476.04

* Remainder purchase is of 2187 shares bought for £14,998.60 * 2187/5029 = £6,522.56.

Gain on the sale = £11,097.57 - £8,476.04 = £2,621.53, realised on the sale date 08/06/2020 (so in the 2020/2021 tax year).

Note: if the 25/06/2020 purchase had been of a smaller number of shares than the sale, you would instead apportion the sale into a sale matching the 25/06/2020 purchase and a remainder sale, calculate the gain from the matching sale and the 25/06/2020 purchase, and then try to match the remainder sale. Looking for purchases within the following 30 days, the 25/06/2020 purchase would have already been matched and so not available for further matching, but the 01/07/2020 purchase would be within those 30 days and available for matching - and so the remainder sale would be matched to the 01/07/2020 purchase under a further application of the 30-day rule.

Buy 25/06/2020 ABC.L 5029 2.96621 6.95 74.59 14917.06 14998.60

This purchase has been modified by the 30-day rule matching of the 08/06/2020 sale described above, to its remainder purchase of 2187 shares for £6,522.56. Merge that remainder purchase into the 'section 104 pool' of 2842 shares bought for £10,429.57, which results in a new 'section 104 pool' of 2842+2187 = 5029 shares bought for £10,429.57+£6,522.56 = £16,952.13.

Buy 01/07/2020 ABC.L 5012 2.77939 6.95 69.65 13930.31 14006.91

Merge this purchase (which hasn't been modified) into the 'section 104 pool', resulting in a new 'section 104 pool' of 5029+5012 = 10041 shares bought for £16,952.13+£14,006.91 = £30,959.04.

Buy 14/09/2020 ABC.L 3882 2.04854 5.95 39.76 7952.43 7998.14

Merge this purchase (which hasn't been modified) into the 'section 104 pool', resulting in a new 'section 104 pool' of 10041+3882 = 13923 shares bought for £30,959.04+£7,998.14 = £38,957.18.

Rights 09/11/2020 ABC.L 46410 0.32000 0.00 0.00 14851.20 14851.20

In principle, the tricky point about shares obtained in a rights issue is that they don't count as an acquisition for the purposes of the share-matching rules (and the 30-day rule in particular), but essentially as enhancement expenditure on the existing 'section 104 pool'. The result is that the existing 'section 104 pool' of 12923 shares bought for £38,957.18 is enhanced to one of 13923+46410 = 60333 shares bought for £38,957.18+£14,851.20 = £53,808.38.

Note: when there are no sales in the 30 preceding days (as in this case), this is of course exactly the same resulting 'section 104 pool' as you would get if the rights issue had instead been a purchase of 46410 shares for £14,851.20. But if there had been a sale in the 30 preceding days, that sale would not have been matched under the 30-day rule by the rights issue and would be matched under the 30-day rule by the purchase. So while the results of getting 46410 extra shares for £14,851.20 on 09/11/2020 don't depend on whether you get them from a rights issue or a purchase for this particular holding history, they do differ for some holding histories.

Sell 23/11/2020 ABC.L 60333 1.06330 6.95 0.00 64152.08 64145.13

There are no acquisitions in the next 30 days after the sale, so match the sale to the 'section 104 pool'. And since the sale and the 'section 104 pool' have identical numbers of shares, no apportionment is needed. So just calculate the gain or loss directly from them - it's a gain of £64,145.13-£53,808.38 = £10,336.75, realised on 23/11/2020 (so also in the 2020/2021 tax year).

Gengulphus

[serratia] 05/10/2021 12:52

Thanks Gengulphus,

I haven't sold any over the years so for CGT purposes I'll just add up the value of the shares taken as dividends and use the average price.

[zangdook] 05/10/2021 11:11

Gengulphus,

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. My ISA manager did not provide me with "details in writing of the market value"; the entire holding was assigned a value of 1p in the 'Cost' column when it appeared in my non-ISA account. If there is any return on the shares I'll have to go back to them and point out that they're supposed to. I did query it at the time, but the very junior person I spoke to just asked me what valuation I would like and offered to change it, which probably wouldn't satisfy HMRC. Otherwise I'll look into the post-transaction valuation checks.

Thanks again!

[srtu] 04/10/2021 08:21

Need some help in calculating CGT for the following Portfolio, particularly interested in disposal made after Rights issue. Many Thanks in advance for your help.

Buy/Sell Date Company Shares SharePrice Charges StampDuty Consideration Net Value
Buy 27/03/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.64911 6.95 51.85 10370.77 10429.57
Sell 08/06/2020 ABC.L 2842 3.90729 6.95 0.00 11104.52 11097.57
Buy 25/06/2020 ABC.L 5029 2.96621 6.95 74.59 14917.06 14998.60
Buy 01/07/2020 ABC.L 5012 2.77939 6.95 69.65 13930.31 14006.91
Buy 14/09/2020 ABC.L 3882 2.04854 5.95 39.76 7952.43 7998.14
Rights 09/11/2020 ABC.L 46410 0.32000 0.00 0.00 14851.20 14851.20
Sell 23/11/2020 ABC.L 60333 1.06330 6.95 0.00 64152.08 64145.13

[sleveen] 01/10/2021 12:16

Up and running once again.

thanks david77.

[gengulphus] 30/9/2021 15:43

zangdook,

A couple of years ago ERET decided to wind itself up and as part of the process it delisted. My shares were therefore moved out of my ISA. As this took place after the delisting, there was no market price on the day they were de-ISAed. If I now receive money from the liquidation, what is the cost price of my shares for the purpose of CGT? Is it the actual cost, or the value on the last day of listing, or nil?

I'm afraid I don't really know. The things I do know are:

From :

"Where the new investments are not qualifying investments, managers must, within 30 calendar days of the date on which they became non-qualifying investments, either:

* sell them (in which case the proceeds can remain in the stocks and shares ISA)
* transfer them to the investor to be held outside the ISA."

From :

"On the transfer to an investor of an investment, the manager must provide the investor with details in writing of the market value of the investment as at the date of withdrawal."

followed by a lot of detailed rules about what the "market value" is. The cases covered make it clear that "market value" does not simply mean "market price on the day of withdrawal, or zero if there is no such market price" - it does mean market price (determined by various detailed rules) on the day of withdrawal if there is such a market price, but there are other detailed rules to cover at least some cases where there isn't one. The following might be regarded as covering the case of a share voluntarily delisting on the basis that the Stock Exchange is closed for trading that particular share on the day of withdrawal:

"Where the date of valuation falls on or after 6 April 2015, the market value of shares, qualifying securities or strips included in the official UK list is the lower of the two prices shown as the closing price in the Stock Exchange Daily Official List for that day plus one half of the difference between those two figures.

If the Stock Exchange is closed, the value is that value on the latest previous day on which it was open."

If so, the answer would be the market price on the last day of trading - but that way of regarding the phrase "Stock Exchange is closed" does seem a bit contrived, so I'm not at all confident about that answer! Otherwise, the next bit:

"This doesn’t apply to determine the market value of shares or securities where in consequence of special circumstances the closing prices quoted in the Stock Exchange Daily Official List are by themselves not a proper measure of market value of the shares or securities.

In that case the market value is determined under section 272 of Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 as the price shares might reasonably be expected to fetch on a sale in the open market."

gives a sort of answer, but as that answer essentially involves using a professional valuer, it's probably not at all satisfactory...

Incidentally, did your ISA manager send you a market value of nil, based on there being no market price on the day of transfer? Or did they not send you a market value at all, either stating the same reason for their failure to do so or just failing to do so without giving any reason for the failure? I ask because one thing you might consider doing is tackling your ISA manager about the issue, and it makes a difference to whether they've failed to meet their obligation to provide you with a market value, or whether it's only a matter of whether you think they've given you a reasonable market value.

One other thing I'll mention is 'post transaction valuation checks' ( ). They look designed to check valuations being used in a CGT computation, so may not be usable until you dispose of the ERET shares and have a CGT computation to submit - which might take some time. But if for instance you think the share price on the last day of trading is a more reasonable estimate of the market value on the day of transfer than nil, submitting a post transaction valuation check when the time comes would be a reasonable way to demonstrate good faith.

And finally, the lesson to learn is that if the situation of a company you own in your ISA decides to delist comes up again, then:

* if you don't want to still own the shares afterwards, sell them from the ISA while you still can;

* if you do want to still own the shares afterwards and have the cash to repurchase them outside the ISA, sell them from the ISA while you still can and repurchase them outside - you'll lose a bit on trading costs, but you'll keep their value inside the tax shelter of the ISA;

* if you do want to still own the shares afterwards and don't have the cash to repurchase them outside the ISA, withdraw them from the ISA before they delist - you won't keep their value inside the ISA, but at least there will be an easily-determined market value on the day they're withdrawn.

Gengulphus

[gengulphus] 30/9/2021 13:38

serratia,

I've held a share for many years and always took the dividend as shares. If I sell some of the shares what do I use as the purchase price? I'm assuming it's the average price of all the dividend shares + the original purchase is that correct?

That's basically correct provided you haven't previously sold any shares from the holding and the holding hasn't experienced some types of corporate action and you don't buy more shares of the same type as you've sold on the same day as you sold or in the following 30 days. Note that it's particularly easy to inadvertently end up buying again within 30 days after a sale if you're automatically reinvesting dividends in more shares... (Personally, I reckon that automatic dividend reinvestment is OK in ISAs and SIPPs, but more trouble than it's worth for shares held in an ordinary trading account or as certificates.)

I will however comment that it's generally easier to do the calculations in 'N shares bought for a total of £X' terms rather than 'N shares bought at an average price of £P' terms - it can be done the second way, but you'll forever find yourself dividing by N to arrive at the average price, and then multiplying the average price by N again to get the total amount spent early in the next CGT calculation...

So basically, add up the total number of shares you've got and the total amount of money you've spent on them (*). Then if you sell M shares, you're selling M/Nths of the 'N shares bought for a total of £X', which is 'M shares bought for a total of £X*M/N', and what you're left with is 'N-M shares bought for a total of £X - £X*M/N'.

If you have sold some of the shares previously (perhaps in a year when it was clear that you didn't have CGT to pay), or they've undergone corporate actions such as share splits, share consolidations, bonus issues, rights issues, open offers, B share schemes, company mergers, company demergers, etc, or if you end up buying that type of share on the same day as the sale or in the next 30 days, ask again with details of what situation you need to know how to handle. Some of them are quite easy to handle, others rather more complex - but the main reason why I'm not giving details is not complexity, but just the sheer number of different situations that can occur!

(*) Note that the total amount of money you've spent on them doesn't include any 'change' left over from purchases of whole numbers of dividend shares - though if the dividend share scheme carries such 'change' forward to the next dividend share purchase, that only applies to the 'change' from the most recent dividend share purchase.

Gengulphus

[serratia] 28/9/2021 09:39

I've held a share for many years and always took the dividend as shares. If I sell some of the shares what do I use as the purchase price? I'm assuming it's the average price of all the dividend shares + the original purchase is that correct?

[zangdook] 26/9/2021 09:56

A couple of years ago ERET decided to wind itself up and as part of the process it delisted. My shares were therefore moved out of my ISA. As this took place after the delisting, there was no market price on the day they were de-ISAed. If I now receive money from the liquidation, what is the cost price of my shares for the purpose of CGT? Is it the actual cost, or the value on the last day of listing, or nil?

[sleveen] 24/9/2021 10:50

david77

I hope you are well, just noticed your CGT calculator website is down.

Will it be available soon?

[squidd] 05/8/2021 16:04

Genulphus:

My sole charity, in the past few years has been the Salvation Army, because they were the only ones active before the war in the impoverished streets of East London where I was born. Fortunately, education in the local infants school was first class - I think everyone knew their 3 R's by age 6, which was way ahead of other places, as we discovered when evacuated to Devon. This early start has enabled me to find well paid employment throughout life, and so able to pay something back.

I have been gifted with almost perfect eyesight, even in old age, so will be glad to make a donation to those less fortunate, via Sightsavers International.

Thanks again for your help in this matter.

squidd.