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Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  0.00 0.0% 4,600.00 4,600.00 4,610.00 4,610.00 4,610.00 4,610.00 34,067 16:35:12
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments 7.8 6.4 59.1 77.8 560

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

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DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
12/5/2020
08:29
Thanks for the reply. In fact it was 1p for the whole shareholding, not per share. The transfer was made well after the 30-day limit, as they were not paying attention. However, I shall probably not pursue it (at present) because the aggravation of dealing with sleepy and unhelpful stockbrokers outweighs the small danger that any eventual returns will push me far into CGT territory.
zangdook
12/5/2020
07:38
zangdook, That reminds me of something which happened to me a couple of years ago: A company in my ISA was delisted and its shares were transferred out to my non-ISA account, and the broker simply listed the entire shareholding at a purchase cost of 1p (without explanation - when I queried it they asked me "what price do you want us to put?"). Is that correct practice when a delisted company is de-ISAed, or would the cost be the closing price on the last day of listing, or something else? I doubt there's been any sort of regular trade in the shares since delisting. I don't know exactly how the delisted company is supposed to be valued in those circumstances. But what I do know is the following link: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-manage-an-isa-investment-fund#withdrawals-investments-stocks-shares-lifetime It starts: "On the transfer to an investor of an investment, the manager must provide the investor with details in writing of the market value of the investment as at the date of withdrawal." and it goes on to give some details of how the ISA manager should determine that market value in various circumstances. I.e. it's the ISA manager's responsibility to determine the market value as at the date of withdrawal and to tell you what it is - not your responsibility to tell the ISA manager what it is! So their "what price do you want us to put?" rather smacks of them shirking their job... However, I should also note the following link: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/stocks-and-shares-investments-for-isa-managers#changes-to-investments-held-in-a-stocks-and-shares-isa A few paragraphs in, it says: "Where the new investments are not qualifying investments, managers must, within 30 calendar days of the date on which they became non-qualifying investments, either: * sell them (in which case the proceeds can remain in the stocks and shares ISA) * transfer them to the investor to be held outside the ISA." The point that strikes me about that is that the date of the transfer out is up to 30 days after the delisting. So it can have happened on a date when there was no longer any market for the shares, and I would guess it almost certainly did. That obviously makes the market value of the shares much harder to determine - though it will probably be considerably lower than the last market price before the shares were delisted simply as a result of unlisted shares being much harder to market. So assuming you've been given the figure of 1p/share in writing (which I believe covers emailed documents as well as those printed on paper), the way I would treat the situation depends on whether that seems at all realistic as a share valuation, bearing in mind the fact that as an unlisted share, its valuation could be several times less than it was as a listed share. If it does, I would simply use it, make certain that I keep that valuation among my records so that if HMRC question it, you have evidence that that's the valuation the ISA manager gave you. If it doesn't seem to be a realistic valuation, then I would be inclined to raise the question again with the ISA manager, pointing out that HMRC say the obligation to provide it is on them, not you - and be prepared to raise the issue to a formal complaint or even to the Financial Ombudsman if they refuse. But I say that I would be inclined to do that, not that I would definitely do it, because even if 1p/share is clearly far too low (making the eventual gain and the CGT payable too high), the amount of money involved might not be worth the potential hassle. That depends on the number of shares involved, how big the undervaluation is, and how much money you feel is worth making a fuss about - not matters I can judge for you! Gengulphus
gengulphus
01/5/2020
12:48
That reminds me of something which happened to me a couple of years ago: A company in my ISA was delisted and its shares were transferred out to my non-ISA account, and the broker simply listed the entire shareholding at a purchase cost of 1p (without explanation - when I queried it they asked me "what price do you want us to put?"). Is that correct practice when a delisted company is de-ISAed, or would the cost be the closing price on the last day of listing, or something else? I doubt there's been any sort of regular trade in the shares since delisting. The company, ERET, is being liquidated, albeit rather slowly, and there may be some return when the liquidation is finished.
zangdook
30/4/2020
19:11
Yes, indeed. Shares held in SIPPs and ISAs are effectively invisible to CGT, so when shares are taken out of an ISA (either compulsorily if they've ceased to be eligible for holding in an ISA, or because the ISA holder has voluntarily withdrawn them) they effectively pop into existence in the ISA holder's possession as far as CGT is concerned. CGT treats that as an acquisition at market value on the date they come out of the ISA (*), and any loss between then and any subsequent disposal can be claimed, including ones that are deemed to have been realised because of a negligible value claim. Note that one of the conditions for a negligible value claim to be valid is that the shares must have become of negligible value during your period of ownership - i.e. they've got to have been of non-negligible value when they came out of the ISA and subsequently become of negligible value. And ISA managers aren't supposed to immediately remove shares from ISAs is they've ceased to be eligible for holding in an ISA, but to give the ISA holder a period (30 days IIRC) to decide what should be done with them. So exactly what can be done with negligible value claims may well depend on exactly what happened and when. (*) By the way, ISA managers are supposed to tell the ISA holder at the time what that value is - so if anyone has had that happen to them and not already had the market value on the date of withdrawal from their ISA manager, ask for it! David (aka Gengulphus)
gengulphus
30/4/2020
18:34
Gooner1886, Whats percentage of cgt on trading account ? 10% The standard CGT rate on gains exceeding the CGT allowance is: * 10% on a first slice of them, that slice being the amount of your basic-rate Income Tax band that you haven't used against your income. * 20% on the rest of them. Those rates apply to most assets, including shares and other securities whether or not they're held in a trading account. The exceptions are (a) that CGT doesn't apply at all to assets that are exempt from CGT, such as those held in ISAs and SIPPs and most 'chattels'; (b) residential property, which is taxed at rates 8 percentage points higher, i.e. 18% and 28% in place of 10% and 20% respectively in the above. So assuming tax-exempt assets and residential property are not involved: * In the case that you're a higher-rate or additional-rate taxpayer as far as Income Tax is concerned, you've clearly used your entire basic-rate band against income, and so the answer that applies to you is 20%. * In the case that you're a basic-rate taxpayer as far as Income Tax is concerned, you've also certainly got some unused basic-rate band left, and so the answer that applies to you is 10% for some or all of your taxable gains, 20% for the rest (if any). Just how much gets 10% depends on how close you are to the higher-rate threshold: little if you're close to it, lots if you're a long way below it. * In the case that you're a non-taxpayer as far as Income Tax is concerned, the answer that applies to you is 10% for gains up to the your basic-rate band, 20% for any further gains beyond that. Gengulphus
gengulphus
30/4/2020
15:58
Hi David, Thank you very much for your reply. After making some more investigations, I have found that any shares that were held in an ISA but then subsequently moved out due to delisting regs etc into a “fund and share” Acc, could turn be claimed (if any value at all after the move)as they are no longer held in a tax wrapper. I have had a couple of these, The value after move (effectively sold from ISA and rebought at price of delist into Fund and Share Acc) (HL) Obviously no where near the original price, but every little helps.
1jpb
30/4/2020
15:38
1jpb, I have a question about fling a Negligible Value Claim on my SA return. I have held a few shares in both ISA and SIPP that have gone south. I have heard conflicting reports about writing these losses off for future CGT? I did even call HMRC and was told to file the losses as “they were still capital losses”, I’m not convinced the chap I spoke with was confident in his reply. Any advice or links to HMRC guidelines on this regarding ISA/SIPP NVC’s would be a massive help. I'm pretty certain your lack of confidence in the reply you got from HMRC is correct. I'm not certain whether you're technically allowed to file a negligible value claim for the shares concerned - it may well be that you are. But look at what HS286, the HMRC Helpsheet about negligible value claims says about them: "This helpsheet explains how to make 2 different types of claim: • a negligible value claim allows you to treat an asset as being disposed of, even though you still own it - that disposal will normally result in a loss, which needs to be notified to HMRC • ... ... 1. Negligible value claims If you own an asset which has become of negligible value in your ownership then you may choose to make a negligible value claim so that you’re treated as having disposed of an asset even though you remain the owner." The important thing there is that a successful negligible value claim does not directly realise a loss. It only does so indirectly, by causing you to be treated as though you had disposed of the asset. As it says, being treated as though you'd disposed of an asset normally causes you to realise a loss - but that "normally" implies that there are exceptions for cases when a sale would not normally cause you to realise a loss. And holding the shares in an ISA or SIPP are two of those cases... So basically, I'm uncertain whether you're technically allowed to make a negligible value claim when the shares are in an ISA or SIPP. But even if you are and the claim is successful, it will be a complete waste of time because it won't enable you to claim any allowable losses. And if you're not allowed to make the negligible value claim, it could get you into trouble with the taxman (though I'd guess only mild trouble of the slap-on-the-wrist variety). To summarise, I think making a negligible value claim about shares in an ISA or HYP is pointless at best, and claiming losses on shares in ISAs and SIPPs is not allowed, regardless of whether the shares have had a negligible value claim made on them or not. David
gengulphus
30/4/2020
14:58
Sorry about the formatting of the computation in the last post! Here's another attempt... Disposal proceeds: 30/04/2020 10,000 XYZ shares sold @ 135p £13,500.00Allowable costs: Acquisition costs 01/05/2020 10,000 XYZ shares bought @ 125p £12,500.00 Incidental costs of acquisition Stamp duty £62.50 Broker commission £10.00 PTM levy £1.00 Incidental costs of disposal Broker commission £10.00 PTM levy £1.00 ========== £12,584.50 ==========Gain (realised on 30/04/2020, i.e. date of sale) £915.50 Gengulphus
gengulphus
30/4/2020
14:47
Picardy, Can someone please explain the bed and breakfast tax rule in the simplest terms. So, for example I sell 10,000 XYZ shares for 135p and buy them tomorrow for 125p and continue to hold into the new tax year. How is the gain on this going to be calculated? Many thanks in advance! Sorry I haven't been around here recently... The answer is that CGT treats it as though the shares you buy tomorrow are the shares you sell today - it simply doesn't care that you'd have required time travel or special arrangements about settlement periods for them to actually be the same shares. So your CGT computation ends up as something like: Disposal proceeds: 30/04/2020 10,000 XYZ shares sold @ 135p £13,500.00 Allowable costs: Acquisition costs 01/05/2020 10,000 XYZ shares bought @ 125p £12,500.00 Incidental costs of acquisition Stamp duty £62.50 Broker commission £10.00 PTM levy £1.00 Incidental costs of disposal Broker commission £10.00 PTM levy £1.00 ========== £12,584.50 ========== Gain (realised on 30/04/2020, i.e. date of sale) £915.50 This computation is the same for any case where shares are sold and then the same type of share is bought on any of the next 30 days. Which tax years the dates fall in doesn't affect the calculation of the gain, only which tax year's tax return you need to put the gain in - it's always the tax year containing the date of the sale. By the way, the same computation of the gain also applies if the shares are bought later on the same day as the sale - but it's done under the same-day rules, rather than the 30-day rule (aka the bed-and-breakfast rule). One does however sometimes need to distinguish carefully between the two rules in more complex cases, because they can lead to different matchings up of sales to purchases. Gengulphus
gengulphus
30/4/2020
14:42
(duplicate post deleted)
gengulphus
24/4/2020
06:47
yes, yes, ...yes, it's called bed and isa and you have to record the sale in a trading account for profit/loss. The 1st £11k of profit is free of any GCT, assuming you have not already used it. As such you would have no tax on £1000, but still need to report it on your tax rtn
waterloo01
24/4/2020
04:42
Whats percentage of cgt on trading account ? 10%
gooner1886
24/4/2020
04:39
thinking of transfering a very small amount of shares in a company(less than £1000) into my ISA a/c. I think the techinal phrase is 'bed and isa'.. whats the tax implication? Does the disposal from the trading a/c have to recorded as an official disposal? Any advise on this is appreciated
yes yes
14/4/2020
19:43
You don't pay GCT on either SIPP or ISA, just trading accounts and yes carried it forward as a loss or offset any profits over the GCT level. Edit: Unfortunately you can't take or carry over any losses from ISA's or SIPP's against tax as there is no tax in either wrapper.
waterloo01
14/4/2020
19:36
Thanks Sonofabajosinger, you see my confusion, you think not, but my previous conversations thinks yes....
1jpb
14/4/2020
19:35
Thanks Waterloo01, were the losses held in ISA/SIPP, and did you write them down as capital losses for future CGT relief?
1jpb
14/4/2020
19:16
Had a similar issue with a company some years ago that had gone bust but hadn't appeared on the negligible value list (can't recall what they call the list). My accountant decided that after 2/3 years we could claim the loss and argue it with HMRC if they came back on it. Not sure but think the 2 years was rather arbitrary. HMRC never questioned it.
waterloo01
14/4/2020
18:25
I don't think you can right off losses on Sipps and ISAs as they are tax free savings.
sonofbanjosinger
14/4/2020
16:34
This is the first time I have posted here, so apologies if I’m doing this wrong or have missed some previous info. I have a question about fling a Negligible Value Claim on my SA return. I have held a few shares in both ISA and SIPP that have gone south. I have heard conflicting reports about writing these losses off for future CGT? I did even call HMRC and was told to file the losses as “they were still capital losses”, I’m not convinced the chap I spoke with was confident in his reply. Any advice or links to HMRC guidelines on this regarding ISA/SIPP NVC’s would be a massive help. Thank you in advance for taking the time to look at this, my first post.
1jpb
14/4/2020
16:30
This is the first time I have posted here, so apologies if I’m doing this wrong or have missed some previous info. I have a question about fling a Negligible Value Claim on my SA return. I have held a few shares in both ISA and SIPP that have gone south. I have heard conflicting reports about writing these losses off for future CGT? I did even call HMRC and was told to file the losses as “they were still capital losses”, I’m not convinced the chap I spoke with was confident in his reply. Any advice or links to HMRC guidelines on this regarding ISA/SIPP NVC’s would be a massive help. Thank you in advance for taking the time to look at this, my first post.
1jpb
25/3/2020
14:39
Can someone please explain the bed and breakfast tax rule in the simplest terms. So, for example I sell 10,000 XYZ shares for 135p and buy them tomorrow for 125p and continue to hold into the new tax year. How is the gain on this going to be calculated? Many thanks in advance!
picardy
27/1/2020
12:46
Thanks Gengulphus - the rules were changed a year or so ago, which, rather than simplifying things added another layer of complexity. The rates differ substantially from personal rates and although the principle are broadly aligned, taxes can be triggered at the point at which assets are settled and at the 10 year rule. This latter tax is on the total value of the Trust and dependent on any distributions made in the 10 year period. It is quite a minefield and I am anxious not to fall foul of either the rules or the spirit of the rules. Insofar as investment determined by taxation - you are quite correct and has never been part of my planning for the inevitable transition of generations.
erogenous jones
25/1/2020
12:20
Erogenous Jones, I'm sorry, but I think I have to largely pass on your question, because discretionary trusts and their taxation go well beyond my knowledge and experience. About all I can say is that if the rules for capital losses are the same as they are for individuals (which seems reasonably likely to me, but it's not something I know for a fact), then: * Gains and losses only arise (or are 'realised' in taxspeak) for CGT purposes if and when the assets are disposed of (usually by sale). So the trustees are to a large extent in control of which gains and losses arise for CGT purposes - they can prevent excessive gains or unneeded losses from arising by choosing not to sell, or cause losses needed to offset excessive gains (or enough gains to use the CGT allowance) to arise by choosing to sell. There are of course other forms of disposal that the trustees don't have a choice about, such as having a shareholding taken over or having made a fixed-term investment that matures, so they won't necessarily be able to totally control which gains and losses arise for CGT purposes - but they will generally have quite a lot of control. * When considering selling for the CGT effects, do pay attention to the old maxim that one shouldn't let the tax tail wag the investment dog - if there's a clear investment case for selling, do sell, and if there's a clear investment case for holding, don't sell, in both cases even if that means that the trust pays more CGT. But if the investment case is unclear, using the CGT effects as a tiebreaker between selling and not selling can be a reasonable idea. * Also watch out about trading costs: at 1%ish, they may seem small compared with 20% CGT, but they're a percentage of the total capital and the CGT is a percentage of the gain or loss - so if e.g. an investment is standing at a 5% loss, selling to save CGT by offsetting the loss is likely to cost about as much as it saves... * Once a loss has arisen by the asset being disposed of, one needs to tell HMRC about it (known as 'claiming' the loss) within 4 years after the end of the tax year in which it arose if one is ever to use it to offset gains. It also has to be used to offset gains that arose in the same tax year to the extent that there are such gains, even if those gains fall within the CGT allowance. Losses that arise in a tax year and are in excess of gains that arose in the same tax year can be carried forward to be used in later tax years, provided HMRC are told about them within the 4-year time limit. Note that once HMRC have been told about such a loss, it gets carried forward until it's needed because gains exceed the CGT allowance (unlike same-year losses, brought-forward losses do not have to be offset against gains below the CGT allowance), with no time limit on how long it might take. As some examples: A) Suppose that the trust realised a loss of £1,000 and no gains in the 2015/2016 tax year, and that the trust hasn't realised gains in excess of the CGT allowance since then. That loss can be carried forward through all of those tax years and will continue to be available into the future, provided HMRC are told about it (with details - i.e. what was sold, when, how much it was sold for and how much it had cost, etc) by the deadline, which is April 5th this year (four years after the end of the 2015/2016 tax year). B) Suppose that the trust realised a loss of £1,000 and a gain of £500 in the 2015/2016 tax year, and that the trust hasn't realised gains in excess of the CGT allowance since then. The first £500 of that loss has to be offset against the gain, but the remaining £500 can be carried forward through all of those tax years and will continue to be available into the future, provided HMRC are told about it (with details - i.e. what was sold, when, how much it was sold for and how much it had cost, similar details of the gain it was partially offset against, etc) by the same deadline. C) Suppose that the trust realised a loss of £1,000 and a gain of £1,500 in the 2015/2016 tax year, and that the trust hasn't realised gains in excess of the CGT allowance since then. That loss has to be offset entirely against the gain and none of it can be carried forward, and (AFAIAA) the difference between having £1,500 net gains and £500 net gains in the 2015/2016 tax year makes no difference to the fact that no CGT was payable for that tax year. So while the trustees could provide details to 'claim' the loss, there would be no point in doing so (and if the trust tax return is like the individual one, the question it asks is whether one wants to claim losses, so one can truthfully answer it "No" in such circumstances). I should end this reply (which seems to have grown longer than I anticipated!) by again stressing the fact that it's based on my knowledge of CGT as it applies to individuals, and is only relevant to CGT as it applies to trusts to the extent that the rules are the same. Whether they are the same is something I'll have to leave to you or others to determine. Gengulphus
gengulphus
24/1/2020
19:58
Thank you very much for your swift, and very detailed reply, Gengulphus. Very much appreciated.
eeza
24/1/2020
14:14
Hi Gengulphus Firstly, thank you for the considerable help in matters of CGT given to others where your answer has made the completion of my tax return much easier. My wife and I set up a Discretionary Trust in 2015, for the benefit of our children in planning IHT. The Trust has been registered and we settled cash in 2015/2016 of £6,000. We chose this as we had not gifted any cash directly to our 2 children in either the current or previous tax year. The Trust has invested this cash, along with £3,000 in each of 2016/17, 2017/18 and 2018/19 tax years. Again, I have used the "gift allowance" to its maximum. This tax year, I am required to complete an income tax return for the Discretionary Trust. Gains have been made, but they are just within the allowance for trusts. I intend to settle £50,000 this tax year, a further £100,000 next one and £150,000 in the year after. This will bring the amount that I have settled (if the "gift" element is rejected) to £325,000, the maximum I can do every 7 years for it to fall out of my estate for tax planning purposes. I accept that the clock for the 7 years is a rolling one. As the Trust (based on past performance) is likely to exceed the allowances for CGT and income from dividends, is there any mitigation that I can gift such as losses in previous years that have not and are likely not to be used? EDIT there have been no distributions made by the trust.
erogenous jones
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