Work Service Share Discussion Threads

[russman] 15/1/2013 22:36

Volume is rising!

[topvest] 09/1/2013 18:16

Yes, absolutely!

[callumross] 09/1/2013 11:23

Can you buy them through a stockbroker, topvest?

[topvest] 08/1/2013 19:11

Yes, they are traded on ISDX - i.e. formerly Plus, formerly Ofex. LFI also own a sizeable chunk and are LSE listed.

[callumross] 08/1/2013 16:25

Wouldn't mind getting back into these but don't know how to buy them. Are they traded on Ofex as my TDW account doesn't recognise this share nor does ADVFN level 2

[markt] 05/1/2013 13:24

Yet another fund for small companies that highlights the disaster of performance achieved by WSE.

HFT
Henderson Fledging Trust.

X4 since 1997, while WSE is similar to what it was then.

[topvest] 07/11/2012 20:46

I will read your posts later - too much work today and not enough time. Unfortunately I don't get paid for looking after my investment portfolio, other than the investment income I earn. Then again, I have a full-time day job that also helps fund my investments!

[markt] 07/11/2012 16:07

'directors not expensive'

David Marshall

(? = estimate, approx. correct, check co. accounts for exact no.)

LFI + WSE 30k
City Group 10k ?
MWB 40k ?
CRE 40 ?
FIF 25k
NBI 7k
SWL 0. Not on the board, despite various attempts !

152k ?

Travel expenses, to and from S. Africa ?
Hotel costs ?

and son was on 75k at City Group...I'm not sure if still working for them...

= 230k/year.

230k/year as result of owning around 40% of LFI (or 2.4M pnds).

It is a good % return.

Not far from 14% per year, as I have posted before.

Explains why they are a "long term investor" !!, if you are getting 14%/year, then you are in no rush !!


Work involved at CRE, MWB etc ?
Not much perhaps ? (not produced any performance anyway, except for NBI which has done well)
Any preparation etc done by City Group ?....while some cos. pay the benefit to 'unamed overseas company'.

Tax free one assumes.....otherwise perhaps they wouldnt be so 110% careful to NEVER give the co. name.
-----

Topvest
How much do you get paid for looking after your investments ?!

;-)

[markt] 07/11/2012 15:44

perhaps take a look at the shareholder action group thread for ADS

another investment co.

I didnt like the director actions there either

(2nd top biggest loser for the day BTW)

----

dubious goings on at London listed companies is too common

( here are some of the companies that have cost me money due to false accounts and directors taking mega bonus packages

PROBUS (arguably, bled off the assetts to related party by taking on a debt miles bigger than size of the company
bought land, or option to buy land, for millions.....turned out, had no planning permission, land worthless....lender took all the co. assetts...have to laugh, or cry !, was the lender in reality the MD, or his mate !??)
(amazes me that no Police or FSA report on the subject)


Regents Inns (false accounts)
SFI Group (that 90s wonder stock, false accounts, and chairman was on mega bucks, no complaints since EPS growth was good (false!), interesting that his wife sold 180k worth of shares before the crash !)
Cafe Inns (false accounts)
Voyager IT (fat Stephen Dean, was based in Gibraltar, dodgy accounts, taking millions as a bonus at a microcap, and he was the only member of renumeration committee to decide the bonus !!)
Griffin (Stephen Dean)
Arlington (director managed to exercise his warrants at a lower price than the exercise price !!, claimed that was stopping 'deals'; not long afterwards investments were sold up and cash was returned to shareholders since investing picture was viewed as not good, the warrants exercise was illegal/lie imo)


Amazingly, the shares that have made me money exceed the above list, so overall I am ahead. Phew !


Sadly, dodgy companies or directors all over the place by the look of it, especially in the dot com days, hopefully a lower % of dodgy ones nowadays !

[markt] 07/11/2012 15:01

directors, cheap ?

but imho you only know part of the picture

Expenses ?
is LFI/WSE paying for flights to/from South Africa for D. Marshall ?
For L.Marshall as well ?

companies have to pay director's expenses I think....
and DM is resident in S. Africa

Options for directors ?
Could be hundreds of thousands of pounds. We dont know, secret.

Directors salaries at City Group ?

----

WSE costs around 300k + 50k not received from Hartim (goes to City group) + 40k from CRE perhaps goes to City Group as well

makes 400k

and WSE seems to do almost nothing.
NBI, no shares bt or sold
CRE no shares bt or sold
SWP. I think over 1 year now since any shares bt or sold

to do very little costs 400k ??

And LFI and WSE point blank to provide a breakdown of the costs.
Why ?
They have something to hide ??


Gledhow costs 50k or so....shows that the Plus cost + accountant + registrar + sending out accounts is very small
----

Do LFI/WSE intentionally use a subsidiary to do all the work
JUST BECAUSE it means they do not need to answer PLC shareholder questions or FSA questions or FRRP questions or LSE/Plus regulator questions....because they have little remit over subsidiaries ?


(give you a clue, the City Group website actually advertises using a subsidiary to keep your company goings on private !!)

[markt] 07/11/2012 14:26

BTW
I've posted many times to highlight the bad performance of LFI and WSE over 15-20 years compares with numerous investment funds in the same sector (UK smllr cos)

Here are some interesting numbers

Aberforth Smllr Cos. T ('ascot')
Cumulative Return
since inception 1990. 1251%
15 years 344 %
10 years 127 %

CAGR
12.8 %
10.5 %
8.6 %


Cumulative return of 1251% since 1990, and 344% over 15 years.
Over 15 years many funds have produced similar numbers, Blackrock Smllr Cos, Artemis Smllr UK Cos, Morningstar, etc ie. approx. X3 in NAV and share price.

Compare with WSE and LFI which are at about the same NAV as they were 15-20 years ago. (you could add dividends, but in some years there have been none....and it does not change the overall result in my opinion....of poor performance


CONCLUSION
imho the investment strategy of LFI and WSE does NOT work over the long term
(and I list other companies that use the idea of 'strategic investments' that have also performed badly, I cant think of any that have done well)

and a normal fund strategy would produce better results. ie. when a share is set to do badly ....while another one is set to do well, then you move the money from A to B !, rather than sitting stuck with investment A, perhaps just because company A sends X thousands pounds to an un-named overseas company !!
(ref. payments from MWB etc for directors pay for D.Marshall being sent to an un-named overseas company )

[topvest] 06/11/2012 21:26

Some interesting points indeed. Will go through in more detail when I have time.

The LFI property disposal circular did not refer to any related party transaction on the building. Ever so odd that they received the cash pre-completion though if it was an unrelated 3rd party!!

The WSE fund raising does make more sense when you look at it in the way you do though. The price and terms were baffling!

This is run as a family and family friends business that is clear. I don't personally think they are too greedy. There are far worse. Nevertheless, I think you have raised quite a number of valid observations. They should certainly have "top-sliced" successful investments and this is a major weakness.

I will still hope that success eventually arrives, but I am not overly confident that returns will ever be stellar!

[topvest] 05/11/2012 20:34

Annual report out today. Nothing of great interest to report other than Marshall and Beale taking increased remuneration - £10k to £15k and £7.5k to £10k respectively. You will love that one Markt!!

[topvest] 09/10/2012 07:56

Hartim accounts - main points below:

- Audit opinion not qualified or including an emphasis of matter on going concern which is very good news.
- Loss was £220k for the year ended 31 December 2011 after a £102k tax charge.
- Revenue up 4.6% to c£28m.
- Gross margins up to 14.7% from 13.8%
- £476k paid for new acquisition of Victoria Foods business which had net assets of £335k (looks like this was a trade and assets deal out of administration, but not really specified)
- It looks like the new business contributed about £6m of sales in 6m so it is very significant
- New loan of £204k and invoice discounting facility drawn of £657k. £51k of new loan repaid in the year
- Cash £529k versus £840k last year
- Net current liabilities of £1.6m versus £1.1m last year
- Audit fees up from £10k to £30k which implies some problems with the accounts only signed on 28 Sep
- 73 people versus 46 last year, giving sense of scale increase
- Stocks increased from £492k to £1,475k, trade debtors from £2.6m to £4.3m, trade creditors from £3.0m to £4.6m and payments on account increased from £0.8m to £1.2m - a relatively significant expansion of working capital of circa £0.5m or so net
- Net cash outflow from operating activities of £0.2m versus a £2m inflow in the prior year
- £300k lease cost not included as going into the H1 results for Hartim

My conclusion here is that the acquisition is either a bargain which will significantly strengthen the long term business (if turned round) or will bust the group (if they can't get things under control).

The positives are that they have a high quality debtor portfolio and should be able to use the invoice discounting facility further. Also, they have minimal unsecured bank debt of £150k in these accounts which is helpful.

Fingers crossed that they can turn this all around and float the business in the next year or two to clear debt and take this to the next stage!

Overall, this business has to be worth quite a bit more than a £1m to WSE if they can make it a success. It will be a circa. £35m turnover business in the current year I think.

[topvest] 28/9/2012 08:40

About 72p I think although value of all the strategic investments have moved quite materially since the end of June.

[coolen] 27/9/2012 22:16

I cannot see the nav anywhere in the results, although Note 2 explains how it was calculated. What am I missing ?

[topvest] 27/9/2012 14:20

A few errors again...

"Western holds 49.5% of Hartim, which has a 31st December year end and sustained losses in 2011 of GBP220,000 after tax on turnover of GBP27,799,000. Western's share of the consolidated loss after exceptional items and tax for the twelve months to 30th June 2012 was GBP342,000 (2011 - profit - GBP337,000) and the book value of the investment at 30th June 2012 was GBP1,124,000 (2011 - GBP1,465,000), being 9% (2011 - 10%) of Western's assets."

If WSE's share of the losses were £342k it must have lost £691k after tax and exceptionals and not £220k. Someone please read before the accounts are released!

[topvest] 27/9/2012 12:15

Results out - good dividend, but very disappointing Hartim update. Hartim haven't filed their accounts yet. Be interesting to see what they say. This had great potential as an investment, but things seem to have gone a bit pear shaped in the last 12m.

[topvest] 20/9/2012 19:35

Results a little later than normal.

See Hartim haven't filed their December audited accounts yet either.

Be interesting to see the latest news!

[markt] 02/3/2012 14:54

Have you tried to sell WSE shares ?!

almost impossible....

..and massive spread...

...I've held this for so many years...tempted to hang on a bit longer...

and mentally it is difficult to sell shares for 42p that you subscribed for at 50p (via warrant units) and 64p ..X years before.
----

And imho if there is anything wrong with how a company is run....then that should be changed rather than the shareholders.

Shareholders own companies not directors. Although at WSE that is perhaps arguable.

Directors gone from 1 company today and shares are up 25% !

----

You seen the RNS from LFI today....that they got their interim accounts wrong....not a very good sign...since they are supposed to offer company services as the business of City Group...

I reckon there is another significant mistake...and that in time that we may see correction RNS number 2 !!
je je !
(various mistakes made in the previous LFI and WSE accounts imo)