Work Service Share Discussion Threads

[topvest] 02/10/2013 20:22

Smithie6 - I do not have any contacts with the company. Indeed I do not have any contacts with any of my investments. Much better that way. You do not need to meet company management to be a successful investor. I think Warren Buffet has proved that!

[smithie6] 02/10/2013 09:04

Topvest
you have.... I think ..contacts with the co.

can you get them to explain what was the plan for turning around Auz. co. and why/how it did not work
not as a witch hunt...but as normal info for shareholders....it is our money...

in my view they should only have taken over Auz. co. if they had letters or faxes of interest from sources of more turnover for the co.
it was clear in the old accounts that the fixed costs could not be supported by existing turnover....

[smithie6] 02/10/2013 09:01

2 bad results for LFI/WESP in last year..
MWB into administration and Auz subsid. of Hartim into administration

continuing the track record of similar events

Sanctuary Group (D . Marshall was a director)
Doctors Direct (Mr Beale was a director there ...as he is at Hartim and David Marshall)

[smithie6] 02/10/2013 09:00

"The Marshall's do invest in some good businesses, but they are always conflicted by their directors' fees - they never have the guts to sell when they should - e.g. MWB. "

agree with you on that one

imho WSE/LFI would perform better by being a normal inv. fund...
such as Artemis or Blackrock
and NOT sit on bods.....and be free to buy or sell when they want...

the policy of sitting on bods is good for the Marshalls personal income and return on their investment cash.....but has shown over 15-20 years ...not ..to be good for shareholders...

[topvest] 01/10/2013 21:28

It will be interesting to see what happens to WSE. I would assume that ISDX will close down in the next year or so. No companies are joining + many leaving and so there is a major question mark on how WSE shares will be traded. I suspect that might well trigger a LFI merger bid at some point as Marshall will be well into retirement age by then. That is the only really sensible way forward. The Marshall's do invest in some good businesses, but they are always conflicted by their directors' fees - they never have the guts to sell when they should - e.g. MWB. I always thought MWB was an over leveraged loss making business and I was proven correct, but they could have sold out fully for a great return.

[smithie6] 30/9/2013 23:07

Well

as I recall...

neither Marshall snr nor junior......are identified as having a degree....
or professional qualification....not even accountancy ....or investment management....

surprising imo

most people in top finance jobs in the city have accountancy qualification and/or invstmnt mgmt qual. as well

[smithie6] 30/9/2013 23:04

so ...loss from Auz was 2.8M

wow !!

bit surprised that the other main shareholder would have gone for the deal if he had not thought it was workable.....unless he pushed a little by the Marshalls.....who maybe thought they could themselves put some more turnover through the Auz. co. ....(cakes from certain UK mfr, etc)

the other main shareholder in Hartim is perhaps not very happy at the moment...
since his cash investment is now at risk of X due to this new debt...

[smithie6] 30/9/2013 22:55

"2 steps forward (Northbridge and Creston) and 2 steps backwards (Swallowfield and Hartim)"

been the history for last 15-20 years

if the Marshalls did not have controlling votes.....

they would have been removed many years ago as the investment manager imo.

[smithie6] 30/9/2013 22:53

"topvest
28 Sep'13 - 08:39 - 122 of 131 0 0


Results out - 2 steps forward (Northbridge and Creston) and 2 steps backwards (Swallowfield and Hartim) as ever with shareholders being rewarded by an increase in the dividend.

Hartim results are a MAJOR disappointment and have resulted in an almost total loss following the Australian business being wound up at a £3m cost. What a disaster."



as usual ...shareholders in the dark...
what was the plan for turning around the Auz. business.....and why did it not take place/work ?

(if they were going to use the existing del. vehicles..and staff....clearly they needed a large step increase in turnover to get closer to break even....one assumes they had that CONTRACTED ....BEFORE ...they made the acquisition....

looks like not

(I posted I think....that the numbers of the acquisition were very bad....had massive opeating costs relative to turnover...

the Marshalls should know about distribution.....and a Marshall on Hartim board...and he is an FD at another co......

so....how they decided to make the acquisition ...as workable....as FIXABLE....and then it screwed up and losts a lot of cash.....Id like to know how/why
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So looks like sale of some NBI shares....might have been to shore up the accounts....and to generate cash to be able to pay increased divi ...to stop shareholder REVOLT !!

[topvest] 29/9/2013 20:51

It won't happen in my view as Gyllenhammer only moves into situations where he can get a substantial stake (i.e 20-30%) and there is no chance of that here.

[coolen] 29/9/2013 19:55

Any ideas as to whether entrepreneur Mr Gyllenhammar might get involved in WSE, given that WSE does seem a touch accident prone and Gyllenhammar did link up with the Marshalls to force the changes at Swallowfield ?

In fact, what triggered that tie-up between them ?

[topvest] 29/9/2013 16:46

Yes, poor disclosure, but 82p is what I calculated. NBI now a lot higher though and Hartim at net book value which is way undervalued even despite mishaps of the last 2 years. Particularly, given their Australian foray is over.

Hartim potential - say £1m operating profit of UK company @ P/E of 10 on a sale = £10m less net current liabilities of £3m = £7m / 2 = £3.5m /18m shares = 20p.

So 50p ish is still cheap, IF management to get their act together...a big IF!

[rolo7] 29/9/2013 14:50

nav at end june about 82.7p but higher at close on friday cause of nbi. Lots hidden in results all investments put together under one number in balance sheet and not by segment/ each investment.

[coolen] 29/9/2013 14:29

Am I correct in thinking that the prelims did not disclose an nav per share, despite references to a "net asset value" in the notes -or have I missed it ?

[rolo7] 29/9/2013 14:05

nbi share price is up by nearly £1 since end of june, so current nav about 2million£ more.

[coolen] 28/9/2013 16:31

Yes TopVest, "We" not "it" !

You also appear correct in implying that something must have been known earlier than this and should have been announced.

WSE interims on Feb 28th 2013 stated that Hartim's loss for the full year to Dec 2012 was estimated to be a mere £1,000.

If WSE had no further estimates to impart to its members, the disaster must have occurred solely in the following 13 weeks, ie. between 1st March and WSE's own 30 June year-end. Most unlikely !

At the end of February 2013, did WSE have knowledge of hefty losses and remain silent, referring merely to the de minimis loss of £1,000, or were they ignorant of the facts, despite being on the board ?

[topvest] 28/9/2013 09:18

Interestingly, Tudor Rose International made an operating profit of £1.1m on £25m of sales excluding the inter company write-off. These accounts have a clean audit opinion. Might be time to restructure the group and use a new top company to clean things up here, as it will take a few years for the qualification to work its way through. This is so disappointing. Without the mistakes, then Tudor Rose could have been paying MATERIAL dividends to WSE. Dividends must be at least a couple of years off now, which means they have wasted 5 years or so!

WSE need to take their share of the blame "We have high hopes for this business provided that it can avoid any more costly misadventures."...The word WE rather than IT would have been nice!

[topvest] 28/9/2013 08:39

Results out - 2 steps forward (Northbridge and Creston) and 2 steps backwards (Swallowfield and Hartim) as ever with shareholders being rewarded by an increase in the dividend.

Hartim results are a MAJOR disappointment and have resulted in an almost total loss following the Australian business being wound up at a £3m cost. What a disaster. So all the good work in the UK has been undone, and this investment is now showing a book loss of £0.5m. I've had a look at the Hartim accounts at Companies House and these are qualified by the auditors given they haven't had access to the Australian books. Nevertheless, the UK business still looks robust and net debt is only £0.5m. Hopefully, they can now recover without any more very expensive mistakes. I think WSE should have announced this some time ago as administrators earlier in 2013. They know this I believe given the rather vague wording in both the Hartim and WSE accounts around when this happened.

[smithie6] 19/9/2013 11:17

BTW
of course the official/true NAV....should be produced very soon....
results due

SWL down a little today...
decent news today in the sector of CRE from 2 other cos.
NBI ....still staying strong....after large run up...perhaps indicating that institutions are not interested in selling despite the large run up in price
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anyone interested in the subject of compounding and grinding EPS gains...and its effects over 10-20 years.....may want to take a look at the 20 year data for Wetherspoon included in the latest results...fingers crossed that NBI might be able to keep growing, as it has, in a similar style to what JDW has achieved over last 20 years...current JDW share price and valuation, no comment

[smithie6] 16/9/2013 13:37

buy NAV update
see earlier e-mails

NOT mid price NAV

97.1p imo

NAV has risen strongly over last weeks/months ...due to NBI

using NBI at 433p
SWL at 85p
CRE at 105p

gen. portf. at 2.75M

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imo Western share price at 50-55p is currently underpriced wrt the NAV

[smithie6] 13/9/2013 10:29

good results from NBI

[smithie6] 29/8/2013 11:45

buy NAV update

95.0p imo

using NBI at 415p
CRE at 104p
SWL at 87p

other assumptions etc see previous posts

[smithie6] 20/8/2013 10:38

buy price NAV imo 95.3p
assumptions see prev. posts

NBI 415p
CRE 106p
SWL 87p

NBI down a bit today....will it fall more or bounce back....
MM has yesterday and today taken on a fair amount of sales...infers imo that he has buyers lined up...otherwise the share price would have fallen more imo...
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Note that the Gen. Port. value could/should perhaps be increased a bit since UK mkt has been strong over recent weeks...but I havent looked at that...and little time today.