Work Service Share Discussion Threads

[smithie6] 07/2/2014 15:58

I cant create any interest in shareholder action ?!

...like a distribution to shareholders of the shares held in NBI ! (around 50-52p per share)....10% of the shares held in NBI , around 5p per Western share

as a bonus for our long suffering !....and contributing to all the cash raisings over the past years ! (that have benefitted the yearly incomes of the Marshalls ever since !)

[smithie6] 31/1/2014 16:49

BTW

NAV using "buy" prices ...to compare with Western buy price of 58p as traded price.

NBI 445p
CRE 96p
SWL 92p

Gen. Port. 3.2M (bit high after recent falls ??)
nett debt 200k
Value in Hartim, City Grp. 300k.

result 93.5p


If Hartim is worth 10p more then 103.5p
If Hartim is worth 20p more then 113.5p

[russman] 27/1/2014 17:39

I have slept on the issue. Ruffer & Miton are on Finsbury Food. Milton on LFI. Considering the current discounts to NAV (LFI-WSE), if an activist concert party moved over 10% of LFI, the ball could start rolling. Risky but little downside if Marshalls want to keep playing.

[russman] 26/1/2014 19:58

as a minority shareholder, I cannot offer any practical advice to your problem.

[smithie6] 26/1/2014 18:56

where money from some UK companies for DC Marshall probably goes
"an overseas company" pops up in various co. accounts

" to an overseas company which supplies his services and in which none of the Directors is interested, save that the directors of that company are two Jersey registered corporate entities and Mr. M.A. Pesco is a director of each of them."

DC Marshall really seems to fill company boards with yes men ...that are working in some way for the family trust funds ! ( a cynic might say that if the company pays them directors fees and expenses...then the family trust funds might receive more friendly (ie. lower) invoices !)
...whether those dirs. correctly meet the regulations for good governance and independance and representing and protecting the interests of all shareholders (and not just the big one they get other income from !) appears a valid question imo

[smithie6] 26/1/2014 18:25

Are any of the recent posters large Western holders ?

Any opinions on the large issue of new shares that was authorised at the last AGM ?....10-12M new shares.

Personally I am against.

One could argue that the Marshalls have kept issuing new shares over the last 20 years just to increase the total amount of assets and hence the management income that 3-4% of that asset produces in cash......including to pay for employment of son(s) at City Group which does the day to day running of Western.

By increasing the asset size of Western the Marshalls do not have to put in new cash themselves.....but can still get more income themselves since they control it via LFI....whereas if they issued new shares at LFI then they would have to stump up a lot of cash if they wanted to maintain their controlling shareholding %.

The 64p warrants expired in 2006-7. issued X years before.

Then warrant units issued....which would have DOUBLED the number of shares in issue if it had all happened. ...ended up increasing number of shares by 50% or 6M from 12M to 18M.

The costs taken out of Western assets each year has increased a lot over the last 10-20 years (benefitting the Marshalls, incl. 1 son(s) was/is employed at City Group)....while the NAV per share is about the same.

[smithie6] 26/1/2014 18:07

I did mention/include that in my post

[topvest] 24/1/2014 20:03

It's the company P&L account that matters when it comes to dividends I'm afraid and not the Group position.

[smithie6] 24/1/2014 19:08

Topvest
btw , imo, on the divi subject (oh no, not again !)
the Hartim group shareholder P & L account number is 543k -ve at end of Dec 2012

if then increase shareholder assets by 543k for 2013 (similar to past years) then the P & L number goes to 0...to be on the line for starting to pay a divi....

if can get the P & L number up to 50k or 100k +ve then in theory the 'group' could pay a divi (keeping the resulting P & L number above 0).

(noting that would have to do some inter-company action(s) since it is imo the "company " P & L number that has to be made +ve not the group number....)

my point is that with the 2013 numbers ....that Hartim is on the edge of being able to pay a divi...whereas your opinion was that it was 2-3 years away.

[smithie6] 14/1/2014 20:52

someone bt. 15k shares at 58p recently

fairly big buy for Western....imo not a normal PI, value is too big
perhaps one of the large holders topping up

imo clever buying in recent months....
careful not to push up the price....only soaking up shares that others have sold, sometimes via open limit orders imo

[smithie6] 14/1/2014 18:56

Western.....2014


well
NBI -is looking hopeful imo over coming years....
Creston- ....little chance of much share price action unless a takeover imo
both producing good earnings....although CRE EPS is falling this year (but Western consumes that, sadly)
SWL- share price is looking more hopeful recently. be interesting to see what the next trading update says
Hartim- year end has happened, shame we maybe have to wait 9 to 12 months to see the results. 2013 may be just to beef up the books a bit....unless the Western interims or finals tell us anything

Western sp, will anything happen that helps reduce the large discount to NAV ??

Various shares in the mkt are fully or perhaps over priced....and also voiced by many mkt spectators....so higher risk of a fall of some sort...if so, the Western shares look relatively save...

Western running costs are too high imo. esp. when add on money from Creston and Hartim..which Western does not receive, even though it is Westerns money that is invested !.


btw

1) has anyone got the 2011 Accounts for Hartim or Tudor Rose ?
the 2012 accounts mention that there was a management cost of over 600k for 2011...
which didnt occur in 2012

big amount for Tudor Rose

...I'm wondering what it was for

(the acqusition in Auz didnt happen till imo spring 2012....so I assume it was not related to that)

2) other point that doesnt make sense to me for Hartim is that Western invested 750k for half the shares in Hartim....but accounts say that the total of money ever raised by issuing shares is around 1.1M....which infers imo that Mr Aird (+ other holders) got his 50% of Hartim for around 350K, 1/2 of the amount that Western paid for their 1/2 of the company.
Considering that the acquisition of Hartim by Western and Mr Aird was the same corp. event I dont understand the large difference in price.
I would understand perhaps if Mr Aird was able to buy at a discount perhaps since he was going to be the MD....but at 1/2 of what Western paid doesnt make sense imo.
(noting that the prev. main owners where Mr/Mrs Rose, who were selling up their controlling shareholding)

3) And what is the difference at Hartim between A and B shares ?

4) what price did Mr Aird sell his shares recently ?

(Im hoping that might cause a revaluation of Hartim in Western accounts.
even if get the previous 10p valn back that would mean West. NAV would be around 106p now, 96+10, so imo the current 55-60p share price is nuts imo especially when around 52p is shares in NBI and most people would say that has a good outlook for next 5-10 years)

[topvest] 10/1/2014 18:40

No problem - lets see what 2014 brings at WSE. Probably more of the same, but you never know!

[smithie6] 10/1/2014 15:00

Topvest
btw
thanks for your notes/explanations on Hartim and paying of divis and accounts etc

[smithie6] 07/1/2014 10:28

Looks like Senior has competition !

took him around 18 months I think to put/allow Doctors Direct into administration....
via frantic spending of all the IPO cash !
I think that lost around 1.8M

Junior managed it only 12 months for Western Cosmos !!...losing 2.5M squid.

so spend money so quickly and go into administration.....seems amazing imo.

(they were not execs. but they had powerful positions on the boards and had to approve major decisions....since their family investment trusts control LFI/MWB)
-----

while on the plus side at Hartim they have managed to roughly double the PBT
...but the small increase in turnover is dissapointing imo, much the same as it was in 2007

[coolen] 05/1/2014 21:46

Hi Mark,

Would the auditor be involved in "unclaimed dividends" or the matter of "gone away/untraceable" members ?

[smithie6] 05/1/2014 21:39

hxxp://fulltimeinvestors.com/Western-Selection/

[smithie6] 05/1/2014 21:39

360k of divi per year ...roughly

5% is 18k

(should show up back in the accounts, no ?.....only if the auditor knows to go looking for it !...and no one is able to do a runner with it !)

[coolen] 05/1/2014 21:09

Possibly not, Topvest.

It would be interesting to know how many divs remain uncashed and what the secretaries do with that cash.

[russman] 05/1/2014 21:08

Sorry gone back to WSE Annual Report notes. I estimate that by number 70% of shareholders are lost (approx. 400) but this only comes to 5% of the equity. Please ignore me.

[topvest] 05/1/2014 19:47

What do you mean the share bases are "lost"? The dividend cheques get cashed do they not?

[smithie6] 05/1/2014 19:44

btw
one interesting point perhaps wrt Hartim is....

that Western paid 750k I recall for 50% of the shares in Hartim
around 2 pnds per Hartim share.

while the accounts report that the total amount of share capital ever raised for Hartim is 1.1M...approx. 400k of other capital apart from the 750k from Western.
Noting that Hartim was created from zero just for the acquisition of Tudor Rose and TRHoldings.

which imo infers perhaps that Mr Aird and Mr Gibson got their shares at a much lower price than Western....ie. 400k pnds for the other 1/2 of the company, (around 1 pnd per share) almost half the price per share that Western paid.

thats my reading of it anyway.
----

if a large number of Hartim shares are sold/purchased , eg. at 2 pnds per share
from departing MD to new directors.....as expected or happened
would that create a material event as per VCT accounting rules.....that would change the value of Hartim in the Western accounts ?

even if it went back to 10p as per previous years that would be 9p extra for the Western NAV which is significant % wrt the current price around 55p
---

'if' Mr Aird did buy his shares around 1pnd each and manages to sell for 2pnds per share...then he would be quite content I would assume

...noting he worked for Tudor Rose before the takeover..one assumes he a fair number of years of experience in the sector...perhaps Hartim should consider to have him as a non-exec. or an adviser......although maybe dont allow him to suggest any acqusitions, if the defunct Auz. acquisition was his idea/plan

[russman] 05/1/2014 19:33

If you wish to go off at a tangent, you could quote Langbar International. Please note that 30% of both LFI & WSE share bases are "lost". There may be an opportunity trading listings within these three.

[topvest] 05/1/2014 17:58

Yes, Tudor Rose could be listed more easily with a new holding company, as it doesn't have the same issues as Hartim.

I personally think it's unlikely though given Hartim has raised funds recently. I suspect they will be looking at floating off the back of the 2015 results, if at all. That way they have a better 2013, improving 2014 and 2015 track record. Of course, now the previous MD is out of the way things may have changed.

I do agree that the WSE net asset value is understated as Hartim is worth considerably more than it's associate carrying value on any sensible valuation metric other than net asset value (which is what they use!).

[smithie6] 05/1/2014 16:59

Topvest
I dont want to bore you with different ideas/questions for corp. actions etc
(you know much more than us other posters) ...just ignore if you prefer....

could Tudor Rose be listed..obtains new valuation.....feed new valauation into accounts of higher level holding companies..and then somehow fold the holding companies above it ?

----

if LFI makes offer for Western
'high adviser fees for related parties.'
If LFI is not allowed to vote...since related party....would that not avoid the need for adviser fees on related party subjects ?
---

Would it save money to move Hartim or Tudor Rose into Western shell one day
or cheaper to just list it as a new company ? (ISDX is probably cheap, AIM is perhaps expensive)

(if Western shareholders were given free shares in Hartim, pro rata to holdings in Western....it would give Hartim a public shareholder base, would that make listing easier/cheaper ?)

if list using a company with existing public shareholders base and do not raise money ....then the listing should be cheap imo.
(if raise money from the public then it costs money for producing a issue document and advisers to review it....to protect the public from people that want to steal their money with dodgy issues....although noting that the protection does not work in the UK !, was it Lamprell that claimed it had assets in Brasil...and turned out that they did not exist !...the floating brokers never checked....ouch !)