Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Woodford Patient Capital Trust LSE:WPCT London Ordinary Share GB00BVG1CF25 ORD 1P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -0.80p -0.80% 99.20p 99.15p 99.30p 101.00p 99.00p 100.10p 740,224 15:23:05
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments 1.3 -0.7 -0.1 - 820.38

Woodford Patient Capital Share Discussion Threads

Showing 1176 to 1199 of 1200 messages
Chat Pages: 48  47  46  45  44  43  42  41  40  39  38  37  Older
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
09/8/2017
21:20
Oh dear, TBPH is the latest WPCT disaster, down 20% today and almost half its recent share price
harveydee
09/8/2017
21:19
Oh dear, TBPH is the latest WPCT disaster, down 20% today and almost half its recent share price
harveydee
09/8/2017
18:00
I do think he'll know how to navigate this better than people on this pbb. If in doubt, get out.
p1nkfish
09/8/2017
16:43
pink - because his revenue account shows income of under £0.4m and interest of £2m. [Annualising from H1.] These are cash payments to be made. Early-stage investments can suffer in wider market downturns through inability to access new capital. WPCT may be unable to provide it (debt ceiling) and others may be unwilling. His holdings will also be valued on market criteria and overdraft called. OK, we're not at that point, but it's GFC plus 10 today (on the BBC's timetable), so vigilance is timely! Having said that, you both have good arguments. My position here is small and won't hurt - nor make me a billion.
jonwig
09/8/2017
15:58
Its not meant to be a market timing vehicle. PIs can have the luxury of that by buying in or selling out of the Trust. Use your perogative but why expect a Patient Capital Trust to apply market timing?
p1nkfish
09/8/2017
14:57
In my view, the clever game is to have net cash of up to 25% at this point in the cycle (I'm at 17% and possibly too low + lacking cleverness!) and then take on up to 15% net debt on a major downturn (not that I would do this, but I'd like to be fully invested). Not the other way around! Many of the investments in their portfolio are illiquid. How would they sell 30% of PURP if the wheels fell off, as an example? They would be a distressed seller very quickly.
topvest
09/8/2017
10:33
Papy - that's a fair point, selling investments. In a downturn that's what ITs do, to reach net cash for the next upturn. Any IT which doesn't will have even worse performance. Actually quite a number of respected ITs have net cash or alternative assets. (PNL, RCP, RICA, LTI, ... FGT is 2.5% geared.) In this case, it's harder because so much of the portfolio is illiquid, and income won't generate cash to pay it down quickly enough. 20% or so is pretty high, but he's on record as being positive on the UK economy and his portfolio (eg. post #1073). So that's at least consistent.
jonwig
09/8/2017
10:18
Jonwig How would they reduce gearing in a severe downturn, other than selling investments at severely marked down prices. (Then missing any recovery)? Unless they have that crystal ball I've been searching for. That said, the gearing is 17%, and is capped at 20%, so it's not like there was 100% + gearing. I suspect it's correct that WPCT would be hit disproportionately in a downturn, but my rationale is a bit thin: - the gearing, but this is capped at 20% - some assets priced for perfection (eg Purplebricks but that's 11% ish of total) - if inflation / interest rate shock that hits dcf valuations of jam tomorrow stocks as have to discount future earnings at higher rates (only higher *real* rates matter?) Any additions or comments to that anyone?
papy02
08/8/2017
15:53
'The best is yet to come" as Neil Woodford remains confident his annual growth of 10+ % is a real prospect for WPCT: for details, see: http://tinyurl.com/ya7xrmhc
mazarin
08/8/2017
06:58
topvest - whilst I go along with a lot of that, I would hope the gearing would be eliminated in the event of a severe market downturn: it's more than doubled over the past half year and the terms (bank overdraft) don't prevent immediate repayment.
jonwig
08/8/2017
06:50
Amazons net margin percentage is wafer thin and always has been. That's fine given its business model, but it's on a P/E ratio of about 200 and profitability doesn't look like it's going to take off. Anyway, the point is that we are near the end of a bull market where some valuations are looking stretched. WPCT should have done really well with its gearing magnifying returns. It hasn't. That doesn't bode well for a bear market whenever that happens where this will be down by up to 50% from the high and gearing magnifying the downside as the debt is too high for a speculative non-income bearing trust.
topvest
06/8/2017
22:27
I wouldn't compare it to Amazon.
p1nkfish
06/8/2017
18:20
Amazon made about $3bn over the last year and has 8 quarters of profits. That's substantial in my eyes. There are always going to be losers here, if there wasn't he wouldn't be investing early enough
dr biotech
06/8/2017
16:55
One of the points of patient capital is that it tends to looks through cycles. In this case it looks through cycles and invests largely in nascent companies. I don't see a reason to complain as it's not as if it's not transparent and open about what it does. If it doesn't meet an investors objectives then look elsewhere, the trust is unlikely to change, wind up more likely perhaps. One problem might be associating Woodfords name with it given his past approach but why play the man and expect the trust to be in the mold of his previous endeavours? Give it 10 years total from launch then decide.
p1nkfish
06/8/2017
16:41
Agreed, that value and growth is a continuum and it's difficult to always post directly in one box or the other. All I suppose I'm saying is that this vehicle is so far along the growth continuum that price doesn't matter at all. Its somewhat akin to The Scottish Mortgage Investment Trust. That is a long long way removed from Neil Woodfords original value style. It is almost speculative. In a bear market both these trusts will be amongst the worse performing trusts. I would never invest in Amazon at its current crazy multiple. It does change the world and is a great company, but it's margins are wafer thin and it's unlikely to ever pay a dividend or make a substantial profit. On top of that it is bid proof, as the value of the company exceeds the GDP of most countries. The price of the Amazon share is exactly that and in no way linked to value in my view...just a speculative bubble. The PURP valuation is almost as crazy and assumes it will be the global winner which is unlikely given its based in Shirley (rather than Silicon Valley) and has virtually no barriers to entry. It's speculative in my book. I believe Neil Woodford only put 5 per cent of his portfolio into such stocks originally. This is a massive shift and the level of debt leaves the vehicle very exposed in a bear market. Then again, he should be commended for truly investing for the long term which isn't really happening in the U.K. He's gone out on a limb with this trust and it will either break his reputation or create an investor genius that the UK has yet to see. I go for the former, but the latter is always a possibility.
topvest
04/8/2017
18:03
It's quite obvious what he's looking to achieve. Trying to post people into a growth box or value box is too black/white. This is a great fund for the patient with an interest in wanting to take part in growing disruptors.
p1nkfish
04/8/2017
15:43
I hope you didn't apply that logic to Amazon all the way up. The value of a company should be based upon the discounted value of it's post-tax and post-debt servicing cashflows. If you only value companies based on value of dividends you're missing out on a whole host of opportunities......
prewar
04/8/2017
15:40
Think PURP and Amazon are both seriously overvalued. The valuation of a company should be based on the discounted value of its dividends. Both are not likely to pay one anytime soon. They are therefore speculative investments in my book and you better not be holding them when the music stops. If you invest in these sort of companies you are an out and out growth investor where price doesn't matter. Neil Woodford is a mixture of value and growth. He seems to have lost his way in my view.
topvest
04/8/2017
12:55
I think PURP has a lot to prove. But didn't Woodford pay about £30m for a stake that is now valued near £400m? He has made some duff calls and I expect that with this type of trust.
dr biotech
04/8/2017
12:24
What does "10 years of growth to achieve its existing valuation mean"? Where are these rules written down?I don't much like PURP, but it is a disruptive company, and all that matters is its share price and the willingness of the market to believe that it will be able to generate profits in future.Or to ask the question the other way around, at what time since it was launched would you have bought shares in Amazon? Or would you have stood by, saying it was overvalued, while it 100 bagged?The only rule in investing is to make money.
mad foetus
04/8/2017
10:21
We are at or near the top of a bull market. Not the time to be holding these in my view, but will be a good opportunity when the bull turns to a bear. Think Woodford is good but I struggle with this trust and his approach. Is he a value investor or a growth investor? I don't think he can make his mind-up and has strayed out of his original niche. Purplebricks, as an example, has about 10 years of growth to achieve its existing valuation.
topvest
04/8/2017
09:59
Crikey - Utilitywise was a terrible call.
toffeeman
04/8/2017
07:11
Half Year report: Https://www.investegate.co.uk/wood-pat-captst-plc--wpct-/rns/half-year-report/201708040700040863N/
jonwig
26/7/2017
08:48
Would the following change in listing account for recent price action? It being the case, I'm surprised it had not previously been referred to, for it appears that as of 22/06/17 WPCT was included in FTSE250 listing. Once promoted in recent FTSE changes, it's then available to wider Institutional interest and therefore may account for added market interest :- HTtps://uk.investing.com/news/economic-indicators/inmarsat-to-join-ftse-100,-replace-aggreko-52676
mazarin
Chat Pages: 48  47  46  45  44  43  42  41  40  39  38  37  Older
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