Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[anley] 30/11/2016 18:05

Handygandhi.......yes I am a shareholder and started to buy last week and bought more today under 12p.

Superg1 .... thank you for your answer. I do agree with you about the City in general but thankfully most of the so called scribblers soon move on and out of the Sq Mile.

I have been a fund manager (50 years) and still am but only for "family" capital. I live in Cambridge and have access to people who both are scientific and have made a great deal of money from biotech etc. So I am able to conduct independent research.

I also know how Allianz works and invests as one of their directors sits on an investment committee with me and knows Ricketts.

It would be helpful if the word HAYDALE were dropped as we should direct our attention to VRS - who really cares what is happening to the Haydale share price.

Sorry if you think I am being forceful but there is more often than not a great deal of rubbish published on too many ADVFN boards and I think you will agree so lets work to make VRS a big success......

[superg1] 30/11/2016 17:50

Oh BTW

There is an ex head fund analyst of a hedge fund based in New York. I had a ping from him the other day asking me about Qdots. I won't say who he is but sometimes he follows these threads on this site and has done so for many years.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 17:42

Lucky

The IIs didn't have to notify.

Abovee 3% is the rule nd every 1% move except for ooffshore which is 5% and 10%.

BR were below 5%.

Allianz were above 5% but sold a few 100 a while back which told me the sly sods were lining up to sell without any need to notify.


If you follw Haydale you will see they have had a seller since 21st October and I have the seller as Octopus.



Octopus sold 481 shares to get to 8.99% funds don't sell like that it was a sly option to sell 1% under the radar. If they are planning to sell more then they are near the next trigger. So I'll be watching to see if any more large sells appear for Hayd.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 17:21

Anley

re

'All prospective investors need to know is that 50% of the company is owned by the City big wigs who have done a great deal of due diligence on the company.'

If it worked like that then there would be no investors, funds rarely have clue what they are investing in. I say that through speaking to CEOs and having spoken to fund analysts directly who have in the past asked questions about a company their fund is invested in.

I've even had questions from nomads on some basic points.

If folk looked at funds invested or not as a guide to invest then imo that has got to be the worst method.

I doubt any funds invested could describe to you what a GNP is or what it goes in. Some perhaps don't even know VRS are in graphene.

That may say bonkers but trust me I have had some shockingly poor simple questions in the past.

Here's one for you and the IOF followers will get this. Millions invested and clients buying.

"What is the Atlantis prospect". What is iodine used for?

I'll leave it there.

If the did their DD especially right now and were invested on that basis then VRS would be somewhere between 50p and £2 now imo.

If the herd understood GNPS like they understand cadmium free QDs then they'd realise the market for GNPS is immeasurably higher than QDs.

VRS are the only genuine bulk few layer producer worldwide imo after going through countless data sheets and listening to the experts. About 90%+ GNPs are in fact just a ground up graphitic material which is of no use for the large performance improvements in strength . The word is being over-used and graphene-like and graphene based. Silver is a germ killer at nano level but not as plain old silver. Look up nano silver it's about 50% of the nano market. nm of 1-100 which is probably what the con men are trying to use to describe GNPs.

I was waiting for the missing pieces re the few layer breakthrough and most of them are sorted.

Still no detail of dispersion tech but they clearly have it as it was in that last news too.

Happy to have found VRS, I'd been hunting high and low for something genuine not the useless dross out there, and had been ignoring graphene.


Try asking the nomad or an analyst what they know about VRS.

The interest for the nomad is the fees and the fund raising. Analysts and those city big wigs openly admit they can not get anywhere near the level of info a PI can.

They have loads to cover in a an ever moving portfolio.

Even some links here have been useful the UOM scientists. With 25000 papers on the topic each year there is a lot to go through.

[handygandhi] 30/11/2016 17:19

Are you a shareholder, Anley?

[luckyorange] 30/11/2016 16:53

Superg1 has been posting that the II's , or some of them have been selling out as wnts have been knocking on the doors for shares to sell to PI's , at some point there should be holdings RNS's in that case. However it seems that the main rule in AIM is that there are no rules when it comes to II's and nomads.

That said, it is giving PI's the opportunity to be in at the beginning. Do not underestimate the fact that VRS is already supplying GNP's, everyone in the nanoplatelet market will be aware and knocking on Neill's door, just wait and see!

[anley] 30/11/2016 15:51

SUPERG1........are you a shareholder?

All prospective investors need to know is that 50% of the company is owned by the City big wigs who have done a great deal of due dilegence on the company.

Production and Sales is what the business is about and they seem to be doing this well under Neill Rickets.

The problem is that there are not enough shares so any growth should be done with a mix of equity and debt but with news on future oders will help build turnover and provided costs are kept under control then the profits will flow as will cash flow.

Nevertheless SUPERG1 should continue to educate us with his messages and hopefully more people will join in and help promote the company.

Thanks.

[anley] 30/11/2016 14:03

Correct..........see above ..........and the shares may well rise if it were not for the fact that equity will be issued as and when for acquisitions and in that way they get to the winning post first.......

[cyberbub] 30/11/2016 13:28

Those two 25k trades are buys - the real spread has been 11.6 - 12 since yesterday.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 13:26

This is why I liked Versarien not the GNPs they didn't have them when I started to follow them.

From the VRS site

Consumer Electronics

As a generalisation, the service life of a semi-conductor is halved by each 10ºC increase in semi-conductor temperature. This would not be an issue in consumer electronics, if performance was not often set at the top end of a specified operating range and components driven consistently to that extreme to maximise perceived value in the market.

A significant array of components used in consumer electronics potentially require cooling to achieve the required performance. These include field programmable gate arrays (FPGA), ball gate arrays (BGA), leadless chip connectors (LCC and Ceramic LCC), quad flat package (QFP, Low profile QFP and Thin QFP).

The Twin Challenges of Consumer Electronics Thermal Management

New technologies and products are increasing the demands on the thermal management of consumer electronics products. Product designers are caught between ever-decreasing package sizes and ever-increasing overall power consumption so that more heat needs to be dissipated within more constrained areas.

These challenges are exacerbated by the current trend towards the removal of fans as they are the component most likely to fail and the cause of noise. This has led to an increase in the number of passive cooled components and the rise of low profile heat sinks using forced and unforced air.

It is estimated that the average TV now has at least 3 heat sinks to deal with the thermal demand. Unsurprisingly some of the main TV manufacturers have identified that thermal issues are the main barrier to providing the technologies that consumers demand.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 13:21

FJ

I was only followed this one due to the copper foam and talk little about it due to the leap forward in the Graphene side which arrived after I did.

They have already turned down big interest on the copper foam side as it was too big as stated at the open day.

It's no secret when an order is big your margins are small. I like the sensible approach. EG how can a company go big with a risk that the end user could cancel the order.

Such heat exchangers are in just about all set top boxes, TVs and computers. Many have fans and those high performing heat sinks (best performing out there it seems)
The only difference is the disruption as it knocks out a competitor and in some cases ditches the need for fans.

Now linking that into the composites side by adding GNPs you have a heat dissipation plastic cover too thus in theory the heat removal which is a big problem sees further gains.

[fatherjack2] 30/11/2016 12:45

"...Hard Wear and Thermal products which require similar engineering equipment and has long term growth prospects....."

Can envisage a demise of the hard wear aspect over the coming periods as   
 
"...over 130 potential customers are currently testing our copper foam products as a result of our global distribution deal with Mouser Electronics Inc and we are seeing further orders, both from our distributors and some customers, thus demonstrating market interest....."

translates into global sales growth

superg1 thanks for your detailed posts

[superg1] 30/11/2016 11:32

Why doesn't Huntsman simply buy a reactor or two, Haydale sell them?

The more I look the more the exclusivity looks like a tech block game by Huntsman but obviously some can buy reactors and do their own should they wish.

It's been Hayd pushing the deal and paying for everything

"We took the decision last year to invest internal funds in the development of targeted specific performance uplifts in epoxy resins for Huntsman"

Just a thought

Did Hayd screw their own acquisition with this line

'The agreement provides Huntsman with the exclusive worldwide rights to market, distribute and sell a range of its resins enhanced with Haydale functionalised graphene.'

[superg1] 30/11/2016 11:27

Hayd revenue

Quite a surprise for me as I assumed functionalised GNP sales would form at least a chunk of it.

Revenue £1.169 mill

Other which I take to include grants £754k.

But on the revenue

Services £543K
Reactors £591K

Goods £35.

So it seems to me they sold £35k worth of functionalised GNPs.

Most of the revenue and chat is about selling the reactors with others in the pipeline ???

'other administrative expenses' were £5 million ???

They had £2.8 mill cash at the end of June.

The £2 mill fund raise wasn't enough as they acquired a company. So yes regardless of the Huntsman deal they will be back to market shortly to fund raise. Given the cash burn surely £5 mill to £10 mill needed to carry them through for a year and sort the huntsman resin plus supplies etc.

£5 mill at the current rate is about a 16% dilution.

VRS operate on much lower costs especially the graphene side by about 10-20 fold and GNP sales H2 already 3-4 times of Haydale last year.

A similar dilution would give VRS £2.3 mill at this price and plenty to run with excluding big expansion etc.

What is plain to see is that Hayd will be fund raising in the near future, there is no doubt about that.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 10:40

And that Asia comment (found it now).

'The Asian market demands extensive proof of capability before engaging in commercial discussions. They also demand rapid service and turnaround which requires dedicated local support.'

So Hayd have no proof on strength and will do tests. VRS are already there and selling it.

The Asia market will no doubt be very interested in VRS proof of performance.

as in the VRS news

"With so much progress made following the positive test results from the University of Manchester and National Graphene Institute we can clearly demonstrate an exceptional performance improvement from incorporating graphene"

"The addition of Versarien's GNPs is expected to provide a significant performance improvement to the customers' product and further significant orders would be required to fulfil market potential."

"As part of the Versarien Group, AAC will both continue with its existing business in addition to offering graphene-enhanced plastic products, using graphene manufactured by the Group. Work on the latter is already well-advanced. We have established collaborations with a number of partners and look forward to announcing graphene enhanced products over the coming months as they are launched by our customers."

It's all in news and I'll enjoy reading those as and when they appear.

I already know H2 revenue is going to be ore than 100% higher than H1, before the GNP side is added.

I'm going to have a look at Hayd revenue to see what they sold in functionalised GNPs or grants etc.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 10:24

HayD

29th September

Collaboration agreement with world leading resin company, Huntsman Advanced Materials to develop graphene enhanced resins initially with its market leading Araldite® epoxy resin, targeting thermal conductivity in the industrial composites, automotive and aerospace markets;

then later

Announcement of a collaboration agreement with a world leading resin company, Huntsman Advanced Materials. The agreement specified a joint development of “graphene̶1; enhanced resins such as Huntsman’s market leader epoxy resin Araldite® in key composite markets, focussing initially on thermal conductivity.

'We already know that the graphene based additives we use significantly improves the thermal conductivity of Huntsman’s Araldite® epoxy resin.'


Weeks later in the Huntsman news.

Over the past 12 months, HCS and Huntsman have been jointly working on the development of graphene enhanced masterbatches and resin formulations with significant performance enhancements in terms of improved fracture toughness and thermal conductivity. After further development work to optimise both product performance and manufacturing processes, Huntsman's resins enhanced with Haydale's graphene technology will be evaluated by targeted customers looking to benefit from the fracture toughness or thermal conductivity property improvements. Assuming successful customer trials, there will be visibility of significant revenue potential as Huntsman's customers realise the value of these graphene enhanced materials.


I find it a bit strange that they didn't mention the strength side tests in the YE news even though they now claim it had been going on for 12 months.

The cynical side of me knowing Hayd need an excuse to fund raise is the cost of few layer GNPs. On the thermal side you don't need few layer GNPs it can be done with graphite nano platelets with many layers but they are no good for strength.

Mater batches of resin and many layer GNPS shouldn't be that expensive so why fund raise? Back to the old question why buy the resin. The OEM with VRS hands it over and doesn't demand exclusivity.

Hayd need VRS GNPs for strength but VRS don't need Hayd's functionalisation process for their resin. ???

[superg1] 30/11/2016 08:27

Any accountants here?

The Y/E news said about £700k headroom on invoice discounting and it seems from figures about £440K left.

No contribution there from AAC as it falls outside the report period.

Would 3 months receipts be a reasonable invoice amount. EG around £1 mill available via AAC re invoicing.

That's ignores the bank facility they mentioned. So perhaps £1.9 mill to £3 mill available not including the bank facility. Does that sound about right.

I note £470k of costs was down to the factory move.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 08:06

Talking of which the market likes numbers and pays little attention to the company.

Talking of those AAC looks set to contribute over £2 mill and had that new order running which should push them over £5 mill PA before new products from graphene. Product launches to be announced in the coming months.

So come H2 revenue will have gone from £1.6 mill to somewhere between £4m to £4.5 mill in H2.

By my calcs ignoring the interest and other supplies of GNPs since verification then sales there in 2 months are somewhere between £120k and £150k.

Now something I missed before and picked up on now. The OEM took a sample it seems then came back for more. The original news said products to launch within 6 months with a rumour they may be back for quite a bit more. In theory if it performs which is already proven to be the case that could be very lucrative.

[superg1] 30/11/2016 07:54

On the other side of the market and how mad it is.

If you have revenue in M/C terms the market doesn't like it. The market prefers no revenue and some promise.

EG picking on AGM £70k total revenue from sales near £4.5 mill losses, a failing idea and it hit a £40 mill M/C recently. 42 staff when it takes VRS just a few to do considerably more. More revenue in one starter deal than AGM did all year. More production in one day than AGM could do in a month (going by AGM news).

So if all VRS had was the GNPs and the breakthrough with a few 100 thousand in costs v £4-£5 mill mill then it should have an M/C considerably more than AGM.

There again M/Cs are just numbers at times due to market hype.

[superg1] 29/11/2016 19:29

The market sees the figures on the results side and £100k on the other. In that regard neither look very good.

Imagine you had no idea about a business and read that. I would have jogged on.

I get it and believe through bits posted ans some not this company is in for a good run and will start to break the ice in the sector.

As I and others have said, demand is there but a product that works and can be supplied hasn't. Now it is and the game is about to begin.

[bazzerp] 29/11/2016 17:18

Disappointing reaction to today's news.
I guess we are not on the radar, & many are suspicious of "graphene".

[superg1] 29/11/2016 15:31

The bit that knocks it down is Carbide but he says in that interview post move which is H2 it has seen significant improvement.

I'll tally it all up later, but fancy a few will be chuckling away here in a few months time