Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[ridicule] 22/11/2016 16:51

Sg If you recall, Iofina had to have a reasonable stockpile of raw iodine processed if they were ever toget a big distributer to sign up to a multiyear off-take deal. As a consequence, they are pushing as much a possible through their derivitives company where they can achieve value add without having to stock pile great quantities.

I see the VRS Banbury acquisition as producing an equivalent to the IOF derivitives company where, in the VRS case, highly value-added GNP single (below 10 layer) can be infused into a wide range of high costs parts and structures. There is no place for a Hayd type deal in this model.

I suspect Huntsman, like global Iodine distributers, have seen the need for floating stock piles for similar wholesale reasons. They would want the supplier to hold that stock, at their expense, as part of their supply chain leaning process. The real question you raise is where the order of quantity of GNPs needed is to come from? That is why I am inclined to conclude the Huntsman apllications for their graphene enhamced resin are not high end.

[luckyorange] 22/11/2016 16:33

Phew! I'm not asking any questions ;)

No it doesn't make any sense at all, Huntsman could sell a huge amount to Haydale and refuse to buy it back, lots of flaws in that idea, like something out of a comic!

[superg1] 22/11/2016 15:28

Oh BTW

I believe it was said it the machine that has the patent the process is free for all.

I heard it being said but others were closer so they may be able to confirm or deny that but that is what I thought was said.

I am now off to see what aspect of the GNPs have been changed on the Goodfellow site if they are funtionalised then there must be a data sheet showing what change or bespoke aspect has been added and for what purpose/end use etc.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 15:25

Rid

Just a point. Forget single layer. GNps will be either few layer 1-5 and multi layer 1-10. After that they will be called something else.

They will be called something else as the performance in strength terms the results show an expontial drop after when it goes above 10 and more.

Unless someone shows you 10 layer plus verified 3rd party (recognised authority) exceotional strength performance then ignore all claims about it. Try and find any data on any layer level.

If you are talking a thermal transfer demand (not strength) then I have read papers where htye have shown multi and many layer can ehnace thermal which is porbaby due high loadings and sheer bulk of material. Electrical performance like batteries and a need few layer or single layer.

VRS may be the only company worldwide that can do reliable few layer GNPs at this time. Few layer = greater strentgh improvements. I have no data about how the performance drops but as we spoke to the scientists that have been through such papers that's where the exponential drop comes from.

Then think about this. If few layer is so difficult and multi or many layer will do, why are so mnay striving to achieve few layers or under 10 layer. The reason is self explanatory as above.

So where are Haydale going to get few layer (best results) or 5-10 layer (2nd best) from in large numbers. They don't exist. If they did VRS wouldn't be selling them at £400 per gram.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 15:12

Apologies Rid I had little time as dragged 'shopping' oh how I love shopping. One identified location turns into 17 somewhere between home and the parking spot.

Moving on. If you note my posts in recent times I said I was going to concentrate on 'functionlisation' what it actually is and is it needed.

Hayd go on about part of their process helping prevent to agglomeration which is probably little to do the true meaning of functionalisation. In simple terms that process could be add or take something away.

Now picking on GNPs they go on about purity and lack of contamination inert etc etc. There is room for dispersion for specific pursposes, but in the Huntsman case it may well be the dispersion side as it's all about strength

VRS on the open day had some samples, a fluid tank, plastics, a printer head etc. None of those items required GNPs to be functionlised. So that is the first point some may think the route for Haydale is that anyone that can't functionalise GNPs can't produce anything, that is not true, all you would then need is dispersion tech.

I have had some very recent conversations on the topic with experts and it is possible further parts of the sector may not need functionalisation going forward. The ball is in the air on that one.

My point about dispersion is the suppliers who have nothing but supply, they don't have dispersion tech and the key issue there is the end users have no idea either, they rely on the supplier, British gas can supply boiliers and they can supply the fitters and expertise too otherwsie I'm left with a boiler. There are no graph mixers on trustatrader either when you have the GNPs orders on the way. There is no instruction manual.

Then comes the real kicker you have no idea if what you bought even with the best dispersion and best scientists it can translate into nothing as the source product simply isn't up to scratch.

I understand even well up the chain of people who produce and have dispersion tech the end result was a fail. I hope to be able to talk about that in the future but not now.

Hayd key probelm is a supply of top end material, multi-layer and 10 plus will not produce the goods on ultimate strength.

You declared your past skills. Thinks of NDAs, unregulated and regulated markets, verification date ISOs on the supplier, patents on supplies and processes and the ability to supply. The whole chain would need to be verified.

Imo currently there is no chain there is no anything in that chain, I have done my digging.

Big deal, big market big cash needed so lets buy something else ???

One thing that is foxing me and I didn't know about it until the post. What on earth would Haydale need to buy resin for. The collabaortaion is with a huge resin company Hayd just need to supply the GNPs and the expertise.

If VRS sign off on a deal for the OEM on carbon fibre I can assure you they will not be buying carbon fibre. I hadn't bothered to look what Ray did before but the resin bit sounds like an excuse to fund raise to me.

On Goodfellow they have funtionalised GNPs from Haydale. I don't believe they specify for what use, and I suspect it's just surface tension removal, Those GNPs average about 50 layers which are not GNPs in my book, GNPs are under 10 layers (another story). I'm told that layer level is pretty much useless when talking the performances out there on few layer.

Goodfellow can supply me few layer functionlised GNPs to order. But here is what strongly believe would happen.

I oput in an order, they oput the orde to Haydale, Hyadle conatct VRS, VRS to Haydale, Haydale remove something which may not need to be done in the first place and I get my functionalised GNPs. Functionalised for what use I don't know.

In fact now I have a fair idea of what functionalised means I will look up Goodfellow suplies and discover what use they are functionalised for EG Polyesters, PEEKs, resins, coatings, cements, inks, barrier proeprties and so on.

In theory there should be a bespoke list, it's it's a one for all supply then imo they are not functionalised GNPs. Like a Dr selling me acetaminophen as a need for my Lumbago at £30 a pop when in fact it's paracetamol that I could have bought off the shelf.

I am no very very curious if GNPs going into a resin need the true meaning of functionalisation or just effective dispersion they are two different things but HayD out them under the same word.

So what do haydale do to those GNPs that go into the resin but more importantly WTF are they going to get them from non one has any to meet the demand Huntsamn would need, nowhere near.

It was a great point raised by you and TP. TP said how the hell can anyone supply what Huntsman would need and after some digging I think he is right.

Big deal + massive squeeze on margins UNLESS you have a premium in demand product for sector that needs it.

Right now as I understand it premium GNPs is a very very rare product.

[ridicule] 22/11/2016 13:49

SuperG Thank you for your response but you did not answer my technical question.
I had not missed your point on technical dependance on resin supply, but I reproduce below an extract from your header on this blog. I raised this with you a few posts ago, but you did not respond.

"Well that's where the market is screwed as end users don't know how to mix GNPs into products, it's a highly difficult technology. It's not like mixing a cake. You either have the method or you don't, Haydale have it but so do VRS. It was a factor VRS had been missing."

Are you saying here that Haydale can only mix someone elses produced GNPs, but VRS can now both produce GNPs and mix them almost uniquely at the single layer. If this is the case there is an even greater reason why VRS should be concentrating on much more value added component production themselves and not bulk supplying someone else with a wealth enabler.

I suspect, however, that Graphene enhanced resins that Hayd hope to supply both Huntsman and Ameantit can be of a lower spec than single layer given the end applications that are being targetted.

I would love to get you and Ricketts in the same room to discuss this.

[the prophet] 22/11/2016 13:27

Vasilis

bit unfair on Ray Gibbs, imo. There are plenty of folk who have started businesses and run them very successfully without being that technically knowledgeable of the actual business. Having an accountancy background is, imo, very useful and plenty of accountants have gone on to do very well.
For example,you don't need to know all the technical ins and outs of paint to run a successful paint firm but it sure helps a lot if you have a firm grasp on the economics of what it costs to produce and what it sells for.
I don't see Graphene, or copper foam or carbide being any different.

[vasilis] 22/11/2016 12:27

SG raises some good points in relation to the credibility and competence of company management, particularly in the AIM sector. In my view not only does a company have to have the right offerings in terms of market demand, performance and price, that's not enough - particularly when it comes to small but growing high tech companies. The right management is absolutely essential in my view.

Interesting then to compare the background of Ray Gibbs CEO at Haydale who as far as I'm aware is a Chartered Accountant as described in 'About Ray Gibbs' in this article from June 2014 -

Neill Ricketts on the other hand came to the helm of Versarien working his way up the engineering ladder from what I understand - again from 2014 -

Questions : Who in your view has the more appropriate background to head-up a cutting edge business involved with a potentially disruptive technology? Or to put it more directly, which of these two would you ask - if you could only ask just one of them - a series of detailed questions about NGPs? The 'bean counter' or the 'engineer'?

[superg1] 22/11/2016 11:31

Rid

You should speak to me privately on the topic. Some things I can't post.

You are missing a key point listed the oher day and it's not been discussed on the Hayd site.

Security of a supply. Hayd are not producers. Some make claims but one by one they are dropping and I've been quite surprised by the apparent failure of one not UK based. While I can see claims are beefed up they looked ok but reality AKA results and data are proving otherwise.

There are some very important questions Hayd investors need to ask.

What type of GNPs did you use with Huntsman, few layer, multi-layer and so on. All reports go on about for strength few layer is the key the less the layers the better the performance.

Having enough cash to buy resin is the last of Hayds worries they need security of supply and if it' the top end as TP points put it simply doesn't exist right now.

So on that basis how can Hayd sign an agreement when there is no top end supply to match. If that is what they are using. Now if it's many layer GNPS they theoreically they won't get the results claimed.

Here is a clue ask yourself why Hayd with such a big order pending and a fund raise needed just to buy resin , why would they need to do an acquisition on a different path and spend much needed cash. It's under the definition of panic setting in. It's ok talking about potential and delivery it's a different matter making claims to actual verifiable results.

Who needs functionalisation is another question, some don't.

[ridicule] 22/11/2016 11:16

I am still weighing the conundrumof VRS versus Haydale. I have done a bit more digging.

Haydale curently have revenue of £1.9m with £5.9m of operating costs, delivering a loss of £4m. They are not expected to reach profit until 2018. At the same time they managed to raise £500k on 11 October @160p per share primarily to buy ACM and gain a foothold in the US. This acquisition brings with it an income stream of $2m per annum for the next 3 years, primarily from the sale of silicon carbide.

On top of all this, they are pursuing the Huntsman deal whereby they add Graphene resins to the Huntsman epoxy resin. The business model is that Haydale buy the epoxy resin from Huntsman, then add the graphene resin and sell the enhanced resin back to Huntsman to market and distribute. The target market is thought to be Automotive. There are no quantities specified in anything I have read, but they must be very large for Huntsman to be engaged. Haydale admit they are unlikely to be able to borrow the funds required to hold the Huntsman resin stock during the enhancement process and that they will need to raise money via the equity placement route.

Their ambitions seem pretty boundless because they are also negotiating a similar deal with the giant Ameantit who lay sewerage pipes in the Middle East that are prone to cracking. The same business model as Huntsman is the route being taken. More bulk resin stockpiles and a further need for working capital.

Such an ambitious expansion programme would seem very high risk until one checks out the Haydale financials - only 17.01 million shares in issue and a current share price of 185p.

I now need some technical help from SG. Are the GNP distribution patterns, achieved by VRS, created in the manufacture of the Graphene resin, or are they achieved when that resin is added to, lets say, epoxy resin for someone like Huntsman to use? If it is the former, notwithstanding the enormous quanities that may be involved and the practicality of achieving them, VRS should not be a supplier to Haydale because they would be empowering a competitor. If it is the latter, Haydale have a comparable capability to VRS and are a real threat.

Turning to the respective PR of both Haydale and VRS, the NOMAD for Haydale is clearly doing a better job than the VRS NOMAD. They are getting them exposure in investment magazines to a greater degree and the newsflow is much more regular, structured and logical.

I am not an investor in Haydale but the position they seem to be establishing make me worry somewhat about my investment in VRS.

PS The Haydale AGM has just been announced for 15 December.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 10:03

I'm sorry I have to share this one



Is that wind up, he is holding a big pot full of air. About a gram or 2 in one and some mysterious and extremely rare white graphene in the other.

EDIT

I'm not even sure about the one that supposedly had grapehene in it as the settle line looks like a liquid or something to make it look like it has something in it. You can't then have a powder slope on the left side in liquid. So it looks like a painted inside with powder tilted up to make in look like it's all powder.

I suggest to any AGM investors they ask how much graphene was actually produced in the 2 week 24 hour run for an order. FY sales with that included were about £70k and 2 week run was 75% of that.




Why do that other than for BS. Couldn't they come up with some graphene to put in the pots.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 09:55

Just giving an idea.

My digging so far suggests over 4.5 million of the supply went to under 5 holdings.

[luckyorange] 22/11/2016 09:07

Well, against my better judgement I have registered here, I find that there is a better class of troll on the other site but little discussion.

Early days with graphene at the moment but doesn't the current argument remind you of beta max v vhs etc;? Hopefully VRS is in the position of first mover advantage. It shouldn't be years away from high volume production of GNP's, China is all over it at the moment and will be the world's cheap producer as they seem to be with most things.

So they will be producing the goods over there and shipping them here maybe? Anyway , niche is good at the moment and the bod seem to have their eye on the ball and ready to react to any changes in momentum it seems.

Are GNP's going to be popular initially? I suspect there may be five years left to exploit the niche market, but it's horses for courses and when you go to buy paint there is always a choice with quality for which we all pay more, it should be similar with GNP's , then the price will come down which is when the fun starts!

[superg1] 22/11/2016 08:40

Having Sept the kitchen floor on the supply I'm going to sift through the crumbs and dust to work out who did what and what if anything may be left.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 07:43

The supply that was.

I'm further down the line on that now and surprised to learn how potentially accurate the findings were regarding sellers and who through and the timings. I will apply the trust in late trades and trades as other with a greater degree on shares now and the behaviours of MMs identifying who may be dealing with it.

But it would seem for now that rush of supply on the routes found should have or has gone.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 07:16

I haven't really looked into Directa in depth yet but noted news this morning.



My first thought was 'oh looks interesting' re the claims and then I see it's an enviromnental certification and not about the end product. What is the point of that as a stand alone rns other than to gloat about the irrelevant bit.

So having not looked at Directa in depth yet (I like the sound of the bike tyres), then that rns has made me think, here we go again a bunch of BS merchants. It may not be the case but now I expect to find similar news if I ever get around to going through the company. Ignored them so far as it all seems incestuous on the 'deals' and geography.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 07:00

Oh BTW

The digging also suggests certain publications may comment on VRS soon.

[superg1] 22/11/2016 06:59

So why not post some things. Here is one reason, litigation.

I don't fear that the law is quite clear about an honest held belief due to apparent facts and that it is my opinion.

So if I say someone lied or released misleading info I'd happily go head to head with them. In fact I email some companies with allegations and guess what they don't reply so I post it weher I know they can see it.

Some months ago I did that re one share and ended up with threats of legal action from a major holder standing shoulder to shoulder with the BOD. Told to desist or action would be taken. Well too much grief in share where I was just trying to help PIs, he asked I told him and I thought sod you, you can learn the hard way. Within weeks what I said would happen did happen and I noted post the share price collapsed that holder sold out entirely on the news, at a big loss.

So no I don't post some things, there is no point unfortunately as some found out on another share (not one anyone that is connected to my avatar) I was right and the BOD were filling some serious investors with BS. NOMAD refused to respond as did the BOD. They couldn't threaten me with anything as they knew I had proof.

So as I say, ignore the nomads, they are fee hungry parasites with an agenda in most cases imo. They haven't got a clue about the compnay they represent and when they relaise they have been had by the BOD they simply resign to cover their incompetent tracks. Then ignore many BODs as they are full of self-interest to keep their salaries and bonuses going. If they are takers you are probably screwed before you even get going.

I'm naturally the forensic type in just about all things.

DYOR imo

[superg1] 22/11/2016 06:43

Btw

It costs nothing but a few minutes to try your luck in communications with people who are experts or close to companies with claims. I've been amazed that some reply as I'm not worthy, but when you come across folk that are manic about their 'trade' they like to talk about it to people that show an interest. EG re this share I talk about it to 2 frinds and that's it, I know it's pointless trying to tell anyone knew to the topic, they would instantly switch off as they have heard it all before on toher investments.

Through the above method I have a quick route to who is doing what in Lithium and other niche sectors. It's two way and I got a request for info on a topic not connected to this a few weeks back.

So on that basis and the GNPs we look at and see in various places with claims, I have had some interesting detail on some of them and suspected failure of claims for others. That's not sour grapes just digging and asking around. I'm looking at this sector and happy to invest in others not just UK based if the facts stack up v claims. Then the factor of it's SP/MC v prospects. I haven't got past the facts stacking up yet. But on this one the harder I dig the more impressed I become in the product.
That is key to me, no point have a bike that is unrideable. It may be a nice looking bike with a great glossy mag (CEO on the front with a gleaming smile) to go with it, but it can't be ridden.

[bazzerp] 21/11/2016 19:34

Thanks for the research SG. If you simply compare the Haydale & VRS financials it looks totally skewed the wrong way.

[superg1] 21/11/2016 15:34

I had serious doubts about AGM, and that took a significant turn down today. They are not a threat to VRS there is room for many. I don't think the AGM process works (for very good reasons) and that's why they have achieved very little in production in 3 years. We all know the demand is there but where is their production. I believe they will have to find a new way to produce GNPs.

The good news is they love positive spin, they have bonuses to gain but if you read the small print bonus amounts went down not up so they are going backwards.

However the news reads far differently to that and it's news that drives investor interest and the share price so I'm sure AGM will continue to put out the spin until they are get lucky or have to admit defeat.

Been here before on other shares and I'm not bothering to get involved on those threads or why I make such claims.

I now have a similar dim view of Hayd some aspects prompted by other posters here so I'm glad I set up a thread.

Do not trust news, nomads or tip sheets. DYOR

If you don't understand the sector and business how can you ask the difficult questions that the companies don't want you to ask, and if you did they won't answer.

Such searching questions and challenges are not welcomed by shareholders of the company I have significant experience of that now.

Most AIM companies are con, a money spinner with a little substance or proof behind all the claims. Some actually have a potential business but they few and far between. They get so deep into promises it becomes a lie and they keep the lies going to keep the gravy train going as long as they can until eventually they spectcularly derail.

I'm not talking about rising or falling SPs that's a different matter on buying and selling of shares driving the move. It has little to do with business prospects most of the time.

I don't like shorting but I have a growing list should any on the list fly to daft levels, an absolute no brainer imo on some due to digging.