Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[superg1] 13/3/2017 08:10

I wasn't watching I just had it on in the background and thought I heard the word Versarien American accent style. Like vas air ien that can do this and do that.


Then as the camera switches back he is pointing around. VRS were present at that event.

I'm not trying to make something big of it it just sounded like that.

[rogerbridge] 13/3/2017 07:53

Could not make it out SG, but he was talking about partners working together to bring an idea to fruition

[spike_1] 13/3/2017 07:44

you're red hot this morning sg - well done!

[superg1] 13/3/2017 07:24

Cambridge food allergen graphene sensor trial ends June 2017.

I know such things may be some way off on that front but the fact trials are in play suggests interest. I note they mention Unilever.



'prototype sensors would ultimately be integrated into a model food processing unit at Unilever & used to detect trace quantities of allergens.'

So clearly the big companies like Unilever are looking at graphene on a few angles.

[superg1] 13/3/2017 07:22

the word following 'with these guys' 19 51

[bazzerp] 13/3/2017 07:20

Nothing specific. Those guys over there, & these over here, ....
Unilever looking for partners for quick wins & to stay ahead of the market at least cost.

[superg1] 13/3/2017 07:08

19 minutes 51 seconds.

Can someone check that for me and tell me what you think he says. He goes on about reaching out and then something like with these guys xxx working with this and with that.

[superg1] 13/3/2017 06:59

The KLF

re the camera sensor, Nokia have recently added a graphene enhanced lens in phones.

Nokia are partnered with the Cambridge graphene centre and carried out stress tests on Cambridge ink (now VRS) rfids.



Smart products right from the beginning!
“In the future, each of Nokia’s products will have a passport at the circuit board level right from the start of production.” In this striking approach, Karl Kirschenhofer streamlines Nokia’s planned RFID use. The basic idea is to offer an end-to-end traceable product through the use of RFID in Nokia’s products. The RFID transponder will not only hold data related to the production process steps but logistics and customer service data will also be available throughout the product lifecycle. The transponder will be the ‘smart passport’ of each product.

The RFID technology itself is not revolutionary for Nokia; it has been used in production process automation for years. The new approach, however, is much broader and is currently being evaluated at Nokia production sites after a one-year planning phase. “Our roadmap stipulates the solution will be productively running in three plants by the end of 2016. At that time, it will then be rolled out gradually to our other locations,” Karl Kirschenhofer anticipates.

[superg1] 13/3/2017 06:55

For those that don't have time to listen today. Unilever talked of a printed electronic ad next to products for sale which suggested recipes. It was a touch to engage product and sales went up.

The guy does say further innovation to capture more people to touch the ad would be good.

He then says the technology came from Cambridge Uni. In other words what VRS just bought.

NO mention of cooked chicken so now I know here the CEO got that information from.

So add Unilver to the list of interest it seems.

[theklf] 13/3/2017 00:17

The future's bright the future's graphene.



Graphene Highlights from MWC

IDTechEx recently attended the Mobile World Congress and visited the graphene flagship booth, which consisted of a number of graphene companies highlighting their latest work. Here are some of the highlights.

Mar 13, 2017

Mr Raghu Das IDTechEx recently attended the Mobile World Congress and visited the graphene flagship booth (pictured), which consisted of a number of graphene companies highlighting their latest work. Here are some of the highlights.

Graphene display GIMOD is a spin out from TU Delft, having developed a graphene based display. The display, which is reflective (reflects rather than emits light), works on the basis of light interference, allowing one pixel to potentially show the full range of color. It's early days but several working pixels were demonstrated (pictured magnified on the screen below), with the potential for it to be lower cost and lower power than other interference reflective displays.

Separately, FlexEnable demonstrated a curved LCD display where graphene is employed: Graphene in Sensors Several organizations showed graphene used as part of sensors. Emberion has developed a photo detector based on graphene, which aims to detect light of wavelength 400nm to 1600nm. The broad range will mean that two separate photodetectors often used today to achieve that can be replaced by one. The company, which has its initial roots in Nokia, is showing research prototypes now to potential customers.

IIT Graphene demonstrated a graphene based sensor used in an armband to control a prosthetic. The reason for using graphene rather than silver ink is that silver oxidises making it less conductive and therefore over time graphene is more reliable. Indeed, this was a key reason that many cited as to why graphene would be used - due to its inert nature. Watch the video here where the technology is described:

The Graphene Center at the University of Manchester is going strong, with now about 360 researchers. The largest programs are on other 2D materials and structures, exploring, for example, their thermal proprieties. Work shown included a 3D printed material which is an ABS-graphene composite which is lighter weight but as tough. Another strong area of focus is on the thermal properties of graphene and other 2D materials, particularly relevant to vehicles and this has also resulted in a thermoelectric device design. The first volume applications were anticipated to be as an additive in paints and coatings and as a conductive ink.

Learn more at the IDTechEx Graphene & 2D Materials event, to be held on May 10-11 in Berlin, Germany. See hxxp://www.idtechex.com/graphene-europe/show/en/ for details.

[rogerbridge] 12/3/2017 23:15

Very interesting video especially 14 minutes in and at the end. Lots of packaging opportunities without food to start. He seemed smitten with the Cambridge connection and our technology that works.

[luckyorange] 12/3/2017 22:49

I expect that he has spoken to VRS then?

[superg1] 12/3/2017 22:09

Anyone listened yet?

Perhaps that was the trigger to go after Cambridge ink, who knows?

But yes an absolute steal at the price they got it for.

The mind boggles once more.

Yet VRS say nowt on the topic but they wanted money to scale up Cambridge ink.

[superg1] 12/3/2017 21:36

Wow

I got away from the call searched on that guy above and found that some very nice guy had videoed him doing his presentation and stuck him on youtube.

Unilever telling the tech companies at the show they have huge opportunities for them on printed electronics in their industry.

Have a listen. I nearly went off to do something else but saw a food type printed electronic add pop up.

Trials on a Knorr product in Europe.

I'll say no more.

Listen to the tape then pin your ears back when that product comes up sales went up.

Those that haven't the time to listen to the video beforehand fast forward to 13 mins 40 seconds then listen to it.

Tell me what you hear. :-)

[superg1] 12/3/2017 20:59

Enough of the carbide bickering. I'be just had a look re packaging to see if anyone of note has mentioning it, First stop was looking at Idtechex and that recent event in the US where AGM, VRS and Haydale attended.

On the list and speaking.

Creating Global Opportunities And Purpose For Printed Electronics Through The Eyes Of A CPG

Mr John Snow Global Customer Packaging Manager Unilever.

Doh that sound of a voice dragging me away mid looking. See you later.

If they are talking about it there must be something in it I will check for others later unless someone else wants to do the work.

[superg1] 12/3/2017 20:46

Ignoring all the above posts just 10 kg sold or ordered at recent prices would probably put the company in profit overall.

A 100 kg combined at any time across a year or two on current prices would be phenomenal for the company.

That excludes the ink business.

[superg1] 12/3/2017 20:34

So on that basis just 100 tonnes for aerospace at £10 per gram is £1 billion. A 2-3% loading equates to 3000 to 5000 tonnes of composites. The plastics market is 300 million tonnes.

VRS tech could scale up and do 100 mt no problem it's all down to numbers.

[superg1] 12/3/2017 20:29

Dr A

Very interesting.

EDITED from tyres to plastics

Goldmans suggest for $1 a gram would replace carbon black in plastics.

When I read that I thought fat chance $1 per gram yeah really that's a long time off if ever.

Well while far higher pricing options are available why chase the mass market

Plastics use 300 million tonnes. 1-2% loading full use 3 mill to 6 mill tonnes of GNPs

That's a lot of graphene hence I say room for all.

The suggestion is 35000 tonnes needed in a few years.

[dr andrewd] 12/3/2017 19:59

Following on from the business case for GNPs in all CFRP, I have been looking more closely at aerospace where there is an additional benefit from improved fuel economy if the aeroplane is lighter.

Aeroplane life is supposed to be around 25-30 years, but bought by airlines expecting 10-20 years of service

So I will assume that airlines will want pay back due to improved fuel economy in 10 years.

In terms of fuel savings, 2500 nautical miles and 1000kg additional weight results in 150kg of extra fuel burnt - from Fuel consumption factors

Aviation fuel costs ~$500/tonne = £400/tonne

Aeroplane usage = 3500 hrs/yr at 500mph =1750000 miles/yr


If an aeroplane did 700 x 2500mile journeys, this would be 1750000 miles
So if you save 150kg if fuel per 2500 mile journey, this is 105 tonnes of fuel saved per year
= £42,000 of fuel per year, not insignificant.

As previously discussed, I will assume a 20% weight saving in CFRP from adding GNPs
So 5000kg of CFRP is replaced with 4000kg of CFRP with GNPs saving 1000kg
At 40% resin in 4000kg of CFRP, the CFRP contains 1600kg of resin
At 3% loading GNPs in the resin, ~50kg of GNPs are required in 4000kg of CFRP.

The saving from removing 1000kg of composites ~£80000 at £80/kg and if payback in 10 years is acceptable, then the CFRP + fuel saving is £500000 (80k +10x42k). Dividing the saving by the number of kg of GNPs to achieve the saving gives a theoretical acceptable cost of £10000/kg GNP = £10/g of GNP. I wonder if any companies who make graphene think that is achievable in the next few years???

Obviously a number of assumptions in those calculations, but in principle £10/g might be acceptable to the aerospace industry IMO.

In terms of market size, the aerospace and defence market for CFRP is predicted to be about 70,000tonnes and $7.3bn in 2020, growing at about 10%/yr and so in theory in the long term there could be the potential to use more than 700tonnes of GNPs in the aerospace industry.

[luckyorange] 12/3/2017 19:58

Nicely put superg, sensing frustration with KLF that the share price isn't higher, looking to exit maybe?

Anyway if TC is keeping the share price sensible then that is a good thing and keeps VRS as an investment case rather than a traders paradise.

[superg1] 12/3/2017 19:34

The KLF

You seem to be having a bad weekend your style has changed but I had a read back through posts to see what may be up.

EG you were very enthusiastic on VRS through February even highlighting it on other threads like that darn top traders herd thread.

You do declare having a soft spot for cutting edge tech and on the back of that are proactive with considerable enthusiasm on CPX (super capacitors).

It's also clear your Carbide negativity had history too which probably spins back to you liking cutting edge tech.

You are not on your own a few have declared wishing that VRS was just about graphene and other new tech without the distraction of older revenue generating businesses.

The city think the same.

That probably explains why AGM has an MC of £34.5 mill

Then Haydale who don't produce graphene but 'enable' it £31.1 mill

The you have Directa plus on £50 mill.

Then we have VRS who I have as the world lead in tech terms by some margin on £22 mill.

So 10p and 15p seems juicy but if the underlying companies were not there we wouldn't be able to get them at 10p or 15p and thus the underlying companies have thrown up buy options on very favourable terms for the cutting edge tech.

I declared I have no real interest in Carbide but have watched the reaction to the revenue climb there and the revenue drop.

If it gets to break even or a bit of profit it changes sentiment and then turns the focus onto the cutting edge tech.

AAC is profitable, Carbide was and looks like it's turning back that way. So it will be nice to have those underlying assets not detracting from the cutting edge tech.

Picking on AGM, what do they have if the production tech fails. Or more importantly for posters what do shareholders have if it fails. The only underlying thing AGM has is a money pit of salaries presently, if the tech fails (looks like it is) then AGM is dead as it stands.

AGM staff last count was about 42, VRS GNP side is about 7, 3 or 4 of which are the scientists in 2D-tech up in Manchester.

That's why I watched and waited as the Carbide side was dragging the share price down on a very exciting cutting edge tech side. It's that tech that has me excited not carbide.

Carbide and the copper foam came out of Elektron with The CEO. Carbide had the staff and machinery to fit in with copper foam which is currently being tested by over 100 customers. It's not something we discuss a lot. It's exciting and cutting edge on it's own but it's disruptive and the GNP side has taken front seat.

AAC

If it's viable to put into plastics, it's great to have a company that can do that, you then have a market advantage. Either customer can do it for their end user or VRS could nick their custom with a superior product.

The same goes with PEEK/PAEK on the 2 collaborations. A route to market with no acquisitions.

Overall it's a great sales pitch.

We have the ingredients
We have the proof of performance.
We have the dispersion tech.
We have the ability to produce it ourselves in a number of composites, injection moulding and 3D printing etc.

I see carbide as a very useful business that allowed PIs to get in at low prices. Funds sold because of it and some don't even realise VRS do graphene.

I see EVR holdings with some exciting tech and no revenue are on a £105 mill market cap.

That's the trouble with revenue but in some cases in can also be the golden egg in terms of share price entry points.

So if they sold off Carbide what then? £10, £20 mill on the M/C for getting rid of something that isn't really a big issue. The market is a very strange place but that is what offers up significant returns.

[dr andrewd] 12/3/2017 19:08

SN - whilst you make some good points on the reduction in cost for CFRP, the global revenue from CFRP is set to keep growing at 10% per year and I expect the real reductions in price from productionisation will be applicable to mass market products such as automotive which enables new applications, rather than the more established areas such as aerospace.

Anyway, the point was about getting some sort of idea where GNP costs might have to get to be used everywhere in CFRP. Obviously £100s/g won't be acceptable for many applications.

[spike_1] 12/3/2017 18:42

KLF: re Hardide valued relatively highly at 5 x sales. They have been involved with various aerospace co's for some years doing trials on various components, and appear to be getting very close to far greater orders in that direction.

The problem with Hardide is that their coating is exceptionally hard wearing and therefore takes forever to test to 'destruction' in 'real world' scenarios such as aerospace. i.e. there is a very high barrier of entry for alternative Co's and materials. Also - why would a company use Hardide on their products if it means they sell far fewer of them? Very valid arguement in many cases but by no means all.

One big use by aerospace is to replace chrome as its production/installation is toxic. Hence the need for alternatives such as in oleo struts in all(?) aircraft undercarriages, prior to the very imminent ban in its use.

Best wishes - Mike (I have a small holding in Hardide).

[theklf] 12/3/2017 15:33

I think most of us have no problems believing the graphene story here. I take great comfort from the fact that Industry insiders such as UoM and UoC are happy to take shares in VRS.

The Carbide side continues to baffle me especially since last nights little bit of research made me realise that what looks an equivalent business Hardide (HDD) is valued at 5x sales versus Carbide seemingly being valued at presumably 1x sales. Does anyone have any views on this ? My suspicion is that due to the CEO's longstanding involvement with that business it almost seems to be a personal vanity project which he almost wishes to succeed despite itself. Going back to the recent 'profit warning' Trading Update the language around it is I think revelatory.

"As outlined in the Company's interim results announced on 29 November 2016, the Company's Hard Wear products business, Total Carbide, has been relocated to a new facility on the Westcott Venture Park in Oxfordshire. This necessary move, whilst being disruptive, has provided the Group with ample modern manufacturing capacity for both its Hard Wear and Thermal products which require similar engineering equipment. Trading conditions remain challenging in the Company's Hard Wear products business serving the oil and gas sector, where order levels have continued to be depressed. However, there are signs of a gradual pick up with incoming orders showing improvement."

I'd love to know what the nature of the 'disruption' has been. The fact we've had a profit warning on the back of it suggests unknown unknown disruptive issues cropped up? I'd have thought if you're undertaking a major disruptive move you'd want enhanced Management oversight over the process to stop 'balls being dropped' but contemporaneous to that move VRS were holding AAC Investor Days and involved in acquisition talks with Cambridge Graphene/A.N.Other (because they've told us at any one time they are looking at or talking to several potential targets).

Note also that despite just having had a profit warning they still warned of 'trading conditions remain challenging' with 'order levels continued to be depressed' but tried to paint a silver lining by claiming 'signs of a gradual pick up' with 'incoming orders showing improvement'? Improvement over what ? Last years depressed levels ? Managements expectations ? Market/Analyst expectations?

Yet what we have had outside of these Regulatory/NOMAD checked RNSes is the Alternative News service provided to us by SG1 via his hotline to the CEO which suggests all sorts of 'green shoots' emerging. This is not to be critical of SG or NR but to encourage vigilance/healthy scepticism on the part of investors. I've had deep experience of AIM and Tech companies (having been invested in many and on the Board of one) so I'm more aware than most of how the message spread outside for 'investor consumption' can differ markedly from what the internal Boardroom debates and issues are.