Tungsten Share Discussion Threads

[k3vmc] 20/4/2016 12:47

Blockchain offers nothing to TUNG.

Think of letters and emails as an analogy. Post a letter. It gets collected, sorted by your local office, sent to the recipient's local office, sorted by postcode and delivered by the mailman. A discrete operation. When an email is sent, it passes through a series of nodes, or "message transfer agents", making its way through a node-network, until it gets to the final node, the "message delivery agent" which delivers the email to the recipient.

Now for money transfer. I want to send chem £10k, so he gives me his sort code and account details. I instruct my bank to transfer money to chem' bank, via the clearing system. That is a regular process, with an established timescale and cost that is passed on to the customer, one way or another. Ok, so there are now instant payments, but that does not apply to cross-border payments. With blockchain, if I want to pay Tata Steel in Mumbai for s small steelworks, I provide the recipient details and the amount to my bank. Their blockchain system then works out a trusted path, using a node-node network, to Tata. As each node is added, a block is added to the chain. When the whole chain is complete, the blockchain record can be written, with one copy for each party involved. I do not need a trusted relationship, or direct link, to Tata. The funds go from my account, to Barclays, to Opay, to Mumbai Commercial Bank, to Tata Holdings, with any currency conversion recorded in the blockchain. As long as each link is between trusted partners, the transaction happens, and is close to immediate. This can apply to cash, Bitcoin, commodities - anything that can be traded.

So, we have no advantages within TUNG, which is essentially a hierarchical network, or parent-child network, where each transaction is based on a Purchase Order. To be in the system, a supplier has to be linked to a buyer and POs raised for every transaction.

That's my basic understanding of blockchain, for what it is worth.

[dollarzpounds] 20/4/2016 12:06

So, we have our promising TEP hire? Excellent! But we also have an announcement of a promising '100 day plan' very exciting but do we have any detail regarding what the 'plan' is? It would be nice to have a bit of an idea what with us being shareholders and all ? Right now we don't have a financial diary telling us when the results are due as far as I'm aware? I realise when ET was in charge the communication channels were probably far too active crowing about changing Indian legislation and the NHS , the German government, a licence to offer finance in continental Europe NONE of which has either come to fruition or made the slightest difference to our immediate prospects ? So I understand the new regime are keen to reverse that trend but PLEASE don't overdo the silence Mr Hurwitz it would be very comforting to hear of new contract wins, 100 day plan details or even , heaven forbid when we can expect the next set of company results ?

[bs76] 20/4/2016 12:00

Chemist agree with all your points.

Blockchain can add value on the buyer side but for existing big buyers to move from their existing system (Ariba, Tungsten, Basware or Taulia) will take more than 10 years.It might work for new buyes

It doesn't solve TEP issue which is the key for this business. How does it can add value to supplier's?. Tungsten after two and half years still not able to bring supplier's to embrace finance.

[chemistdude] 19/4/2016 23:27

*oops double post*

[chemistdude] 19/4/2016 23:26

Andrew I think you are right.

I've just briefly watched the video here:

From what I can see there's nothing blockchain chain does that's massively radical and over and above what traditional e-invoicing does.

With Tungsten e-invoicing we have:
-Fraud prevention/Security
-TAX rules programmed in
-Compliance
-PO matching
-Goods Receipts matching
-etc..

Looking at the video I really can't see a huge benefit to switching to blockchain type invoicing though from an architecture point of view I admit there probably is a tangible benefit in terms of 'security' - how massive that is (for a buyer) is debatable.

This secure shared 'purchase ledger' they talk about that supposedly adds more security - well thats why TUNG has purchase order matching, good's receipts matching, hell we even install a tool into big suppliers systems to that we get a third match so we have 3-way matching anyway. That's ALREADY secure tried and tested.


I thought for a second that blockchain would negate the need for a web portal - it doesn't, they still have one so no advantage there either.


As for the rest it of it it still is based on the 'e-invoicing' concept and its only as good as the portal, on-boarded suppliers, 'programmed' compliance checks (verification/validation), and people that work in the organisation - someone still has to keep up to date and program in tax and VAT rules. Block chain won't do all that leg work that Tungsten is so brilliant at. And blockchain won't magically get them compliant in 47 territories.

IMO we will simply license someones blockchain tech as and when the customer (buyer) demands the extra (perceived?) security.

That's just my take.

Will probably need k3vmc/bs76 to chime in too as they are IT guys ;-)

[andrewdbl] 19/4/2016 21:22

I may be being a little cynical, but imo blockchain is not magic.
This is a good outline hxxp://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2016/02/02/cio-explainer-what-is-blockchain/
I think it was developed by people who did not like govts/rules/regulations overmuch.
But, no matter how the data is shared out, you need someone who provides the ui, the rules, the regulatory compliance, who decides when the rules defined for the 'smart transaction' are fulfilled, the spend analytics, the early payment and the forex (etc).


So, imo - and of course I dont do this for a living and so may well be v.v. wrong, the people at TUNG have already thought of some of the impact of blockchain and are preparing the land for the next step

[chemistdude] 19/4/2016 19:34

Hi ed, blockchain is probably the way forward but it'll take time for it to be adopted. No reason why TUNG can't come up with their own 'Tungsten Blockchain Invoicing' when its more mainstream or if buyers want us to go that way.

Thanks for the link, I have forwarded it to TUNG and they will make sure Brian Proffitt sees it.

[hamnavoe] 19/4/2016 16:08

I mention blockchain sometime ago either here or on another thread and no responce.

It will happen

[hamnavoe] 19/4/2016 16:02

Barclays Bank are running a trial blockchain in stocks, now

[manics] 19/4/2016 15:40

Blockchain technologies are fascinating to me, both within fintech and outside of it. I wonder how it stacks up in terms of compliance?

I'll suggest, perhaps a little naively, that there can't yet be many FD's that would place their company's fiscal health in the blockchain (which is used for silk road and hacking and drugs and terrorism -so thinks the FD)?

[edwardt] 19/4/2016 15:12

chem - take a look at these new kids on the block - going to eat our lunch?

[1gw] 19/4/2016 14:28

I don't think so edwardt. It looks a bit clearer on the London South East site. There the trades reported today in the advfn list are both reported today, but for yesterday. And the first one is reported as a deletion.

So it looks like it was reported slightly incorrectly yesterday and today's 2 reports are deleting the initial trade and replacing it with the corrected trade.

So only 1 trade of 2.5m reported in total.

[edwardt] 19/4/2016 13:52

simply reporting on both sides.

[dollarzpounds] 19/4/2016 12:46

That's probably the point ?

[1gw] 19/4/2016 12:12

So is that 2.5m LC trade at 57p a correction (a cancellation?) of yesterday's reported 2.5m trade? And then the other 2.5m "O" trade today is putting it through today instead?

Difficult for me to make sense of some of this trade reporting sometimes.

[pshevlin] 19/4/2016 08:59

Not much reaction and why no RNS?

[dollarzpounds] 18/4/2016 17:59

Mr Hurwitz doing a fine job by the look of it. Give him a bit of time. Why Truell wants to go upsetting the apple cart and doing what with it exactly? Lord knows? You had your chance at running the show Eddie and well, let's just say that 'climbing the mountain' anallorgy has not worked out ?

[chemistdude] 18/4/2016 17:52

OK so any previous doubts/misconceptions about TUNG understanding the invoice finance game........officially gone!

We have stolen HSBC's main trade/receivables finance guy....what a coup!

[k3vmc] 18/4/2016 17:50

The guy gets my vote.

[bs76] 18/4/2016 17:39

"100 day plan" - three more months!!. I hope he can turn around from 100m last year to 1B in a year :)

In the meantime, cash burn is reduced and core business stays on track to be profitable.

[dollarzpounds] 18/4/2016 17:39

No doubt to stave off an attack from ET and give his potential backers something to think twice about ??

[manics] 18/4/2016 17:17

"100 day plan"

[pkarnezis] 18/4/2016 16:57

The question chemistdude is, is Prabhat on the ball? I should think so. Good luck to him (and us).

[chemistdude] 18/4/2016 16:51

Thanks pkarnezis. On the ball mate!!