Redt Energy Share Discussion Threads

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:33

Any purchaser of a grid scale lithium battery will have a replacement ratio of 3 to 1 with flow battery,s, that also includes 3 lots of de-commissioning cost....which with inflation the de-commissioning costs of a lithium installation could end up dearer than the purchase of a flow battery...

[dogrunner11] 31/10/2017 21:33

Loss making DLG, hence they bought solarcity to make figures look better then they actually are.

[dogrunner11] 31/10/2017 21:31

If redT did £200 million in unit sales and assuming 6% in after sales revenue they’d be pulling in £300 million per annum in 25 years. If they do £500 million it’s going to be a lot more then that, £750 million......

What price would that put on redT, there’s many respected peeps who say this is going to be the revolution and it appears (unchallenged) we have the cheapest product in market.

One word, revolution.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:29

will Tesla put its money where its mouth is and share the profits of any of its installation ??? NO because there will not be any profits on their installations, the warranty is tighter than a ducks rear end.... plus their product is expected to last at most 7 years and at the end there is a huge de-commissioning cost!!! all to be factored into the cost of purchase....

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:25

we are all waiting here for one constructive post from your good self.....but they never arrive....your posts have no backing as to why you come to your conclusion....

[dogrunner11] 31/10/2017 21:23

How much profit does Tesla, our lithium (kinda) competitor, make in annual profits for their huge market cap?

Grasping at straws again Owenski.

If redT take a share on energy trading this will be a huge game changer in revenue generation, not to mention future revenues from maintence and warranty. Plus ongoing monies on finance, they will all stack up over a long period, 25 years plus. Snowballing!!

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:22

owenski now is you chance to spread your great knowledge!!!! there will not be any, because you do not have any to share!!!!

Explain tesla ??? one word HYPE !!!

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:20

owenski how many cars, home storage units and grid storage units have Tesla made ???? are they making a profit??? NO!!!!! is their market cap out of control??? YES!!!! so as you see sometimes there is no reason behind a share price....the same happened with Pace Micro they were never worth £13 plus but they did peak to that.... the same may happen here, who knows!!! it may not but if your not on-board , you will not benefit....

If I gave you the figures of Tesla without knowing the company, you would say the company will be toast in 12 months, so what makes knowing the name any different??? hype!!!

[owenski] 31/10/2017 21:10

Posting any reference to batteries over and over again isn't understanding a business, a business is about making money, I dont think you have any great clue as to the financial realities of RED.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:10

If you thought the margins were not good you would not be posting here.....but seeing as your watching out for everybody's skin and of no concern for your own time and energy monitoring this board day and night, you like something here...

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:07

owenski so now you know the margins??? very much doubt that...

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 21:02

so that seems like they could well be relevant to REDT, wouldn't you say ??? and seeing as lithium is sort of a competitor that also may be relevant, just like someone posted on here about Aluminium battery,s, not irrelevant but the fact they are years away and may never replace flow battery,s is another matter...

so thanks for your input and relevant information (not)..

[owenski] 31/10/2017 21:00

Margins????? etc??? Any useful financial stuff re RED??? cause I reckon they'll still be loss making even with a 100 machine sale.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:58

owenski not really irrelevant posts. REDT set out on a solution for electric vehicles and shelved it until a later date, they wanted to concentrate on stationary storage FIRST....... so may come into play in the near future...as you may see from the picture in the header of a liquid refueling station...

[owenski] 31/10/2017 20:49

A lot of irrelevant posts there dig

Can you give any idea what margins RED expect to earn on one of their machines instead.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:43

As of July 2012 the road between Junctions 3A and 11A now carries 120,000 motor vehicles every day...

can anybody spot a problem with lithium charging?? if they only take half of an hour to charge their cars, you will need thousands of charging points, each charging point needing its own car parking space, you could run out of power and need to recharge before you got out of the car park!!!! but seeing as most will not be fully charged they will not travel as far as a petrol car so will need to charge again...

so if it takes five minutes to fill a petrol car which is an overestimate and it takes 40 minutes to charge to 80%, 80% of 300miles = 240miles before you need to refuel, a modern petrol car does 40 miles to a gallon and holds around 10 gallon just over 45 litres gives you 400miles before refuel, so you will have around 16 times the amount of cars refueling, a busy bank holiday will be mayhem, it is fine with the limited amount of electric vehicles, but as more and more come onto the roads..well..


Surely a system like we have now where you fill up with a liquid would be the answer, not everybody hogging a wire for 75 minutes..

At end of
March 2016
36.7 million
Vehicles licensed
for use on roads
in Great Britain

thats a lot of charging points.....the other problem is home charging how do you charge at home if you do not have a drive or a garage?? the other problem what if you live in a on the street terraced house, there will be thousands of wires running over the pavements, can you imagine the accidents !!!!

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:11

Five hours is good for overnight charging, but for rapid boosts, it’s not that great. Tesla offers a global network of supercharging stations specially designed to provide up to 120 kilowatts of power to its vehicles. The 90kWh Model S can charge from zero to 100 percent in just 75 minutes, or from zero to 80 percent in 40 minutes.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:11

Lithium batteries have the potential of thermal runaway producing fires or even explosions. A vanadium redox battery has zero chance of this. Indeed, the fact that the vanadium is dissolved in a water based electrolyte means that it is completely non-flammable and should a fire in the vicinity of a vanadium redox battery breach the storage tanks, could put out the fire.


Lithium ion batteries currently cost around $1750/kWh, however once Tesla’s Gigafactory comes online by 2020 this should reduce to $500/kWh retail. This cost included all supporting technology as well such as associated electronics and installation. In contrast, vanadium redox batteries are already capable of being sold for $500/kWh, and it is anticipated that this will come down to $150/kWh by 2020.

Unlike a lithium ion battery, the cost for a vanadium redox battery system actually decreases as it gets larger. In a lithium ion battery, if you want to double the capacity, you double the cost; with vanadium you just double the size of the tank, a small cost relative to the entire system.



While the ability to charge a battery by switching the electrolyte is unnecessary when charging slowly such as in a grid-leveling application, a major limitation of electric vehicles is the slow charging times compared to the quick refueling of an internal combustion engine automobile. For example, a Tesla when charging from a standard 120 V, 12 A outlet will only get 3 miles of range per hour of charging. In comparison, one can easily see the advantages of a flow battery with easily swappable electrolyte; a ‘vanadium station’ could swap the electrolyte in a time comparable to refueling an internal combustion vehicle.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:06

Unlike a lithium battery, a vanadium redox battery has an essentially infinite lifetime


Vanadium redox batteries have independent power and energy capacities; as such to add additional lifetime one can simply increase the size of the vanadium electrolyte storage tanks. They are capable of being mass produced using modular parts where to increase the power or energy capacity of the system a component can be switched out with one of targeted properties that is mass produced for a modular system. These economies of scale with modular parts result in lower manufacturing costs and simple production results in being able to put together a vanadium redox battery factory for far cheaper than a lithium ion battery factory.


Lithium ion batteries are not currently recycled. The active ingredient lithium salts only make up a small percentage of the battery weight, and the lithium cost is only 3% of the entire battery cost. Even if lithim batteries were recycled for their lithium content, the recovered lithium would be 5 times the price as freshly-mined lithium; the economics prevent adoption. As a result, lithium ion batteries are discarded as waste.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 20:04

The typical estimated life of a Lithium-Ion battery is about two to three years or 300 to 500 charge cycles, whichever occurs first. One charge cycle is a period of use from fully charged, to fully discharged, and fully recharged again.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 19:58

Here's Why Lithium-Ion Batteries Probably Aren't the Future of Stationary Energy Storage


Limitations of lithium-ion batteries
Lithium-ion batteries dominate mobile and on-the-move applications today, whether the cordless machine is a smartphone or a power drill or an electric vehicle. Why? They provide high energy density, resulting in lighter, smaller formats. They boast lifetimes sufficient for most mobile applications, even electric cars. And they boast relatively high thermal stabilities, making them safe for mass consumer markets -- when manufactured properly.

However, many of the characteristics of lithium-ion batteries that make them difficult to beat for on-the-move applications don't extend the same benefits in stationary applications.

The Panasonic and Tesla battery chemistries are limited to about 500 deep cycles, which is the number of times a battery can go from full charge to about 20%, before their performance deteriorates significantly. That's fine for smartphones that get replaced every two years and electric vehicles that use a fraction of their driving range each day. But that's incredibly limiting for a battery that needs to be used daily to extract maximum value from solar panels on your roof -- your battery would begin fading in less than 16 months.

That forces Tesla and other lithium-ion battery providers into a delicate balancing act between price and performance. A battery with a larger capacity would never encounter a deep cycle and thus have a long lifetime, but it would be so expensive that no one would buy it. A smaller battery would be more economical, but it would require deep cycles every time it's used and thus have a lifetime that wouldn't make sense for stationary applications.

Tesla's current Powerwall uses the latter approach, boasting a capacity of just 6.4 kWh and costing a "relatively manageable" $3,000. The average American home used about 30 kWh of electricity daily in 2014, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

In any event, this conundrum may not seem obvious in a world where lithium-ion batteries are seemingly ubiquitous, but application matters tremendously for energy storage. You wouldn't power an electric vehicle with a series of lead acid batteries. Similarly, it doesn't quite make sense to use lithium-ion batteries for stationary applications where lifetime is more important than physical footprint.

The most likely future for energy storage will see specific battery technologies leveraged for specific applications. Need a really big, cheap battery that lasts decades for use on a wind or solar farm? A giant flow battery may be the perfect fit. Need something lighter and energy dense for applications on the move? A lithium-based battery may be difficult to beat.

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 19:46

But the new aluminium-ion batteries are far from being available for commercial use in electronics, producing just half the voltage of lithium-ion batteries.

“I see this as a new battery in its early days. It’s quite exciting,” said Ming Gong, one of the authors of the study published in Nature. “Improving the cathode material could eventually increase the voltage and energy density. Otherwise, our battery has everything else you’d dream that a battery should have: inexpensive electrodes, good safety, high-speed charging, flexibility and long cycle life.”

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 19:43

REDT here now and happening....not in the future or any expectations that flow machines may ultimately displace anything....

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 19:40

HOPE meaning "a feeling of expectation and desire for a particular thing to happen."

[dlg3] 31/10/2017 19:39

“Our hope is to make aluminum batteries with higher energy to ultimately displace lithium-ion technology.”